Where do I start?

[Petal40]

I posted on the chat bit asking if it was possible to be a stay at home mum and a feminist....got directed over here...had a look around ,but where do I start.can anyone recommend any good radfem books? Articles? Websites? Thanks in advance

[Petal40]

Senecafalls,yes that is exactly where my feelings of guilt come from.knowing how women fought to stay at work while pregnant...and keep the job after.....life got in the way of fighting the fight..

[SenecaFalls]

Palmer's observations about how first and second wave feminists had to focus so much energy on getting the right to work at all is very true. I'm an old second waver, and as just one example, I can remember when it was common in my US state for school teachers to be required to go on leave or quit altogether when a pregnancy began to "show." One of the unspoken reasons for this was that it was thought unseemly for a woman to essentially demonstrate that she had had sex. (And of course we are talking about married women here; an unmarried woman would have been summarily dismissed.) So feminists worked in this arena to win the rights of pregnant women to have the choice to continue in their jobs.

But it has never been a tenet of second wave feminism (or any other wave actually) that a woman has to work outside the home to be a feminist. Valuing what women do to run a home, to raise children, and to support her partner is a really important aspect of my feminism and always has been.

So keep exploring and keep posting.

[Petal40]

All your replies were thought provoking in one way or another...it's making me think about what it is to be a woman in different areas of the world....the mum washing the new born baby in a puddle in a France refuge camp...that made a cold hand clutch my heart..it was in the paper a while back...when I compare myself to other women around the world I have nothing to complain about....I do feel I can be a feminist and be aSAHM...i think it was best for my children I am/ was SAHM...but probably better for me to of worked ..if that makes sense....I will keep checking back on here to see if anyone else posts.thanks all

[Petal40]

Thanks everyone for yr replies...I'm actually just going to re read them all again.so it sinks in...I've had a really busy ,but sad week ,helping a friend get her husband to leave.it was hard and draining and a lot of paperwork...but I've got some time for myself now to re read my replies.

[VestalVirgin]

being feminist imo is about how you perceive your role in life if you are happy if you are assertive enough about your choices if those choices benefit you and your family if you care about other women on a grander scale that is what I consider feminist

Uh, no. No, you don't have to be happy or assertive, and your choices do not have to benefit you and your family for you to be a feminist.

Feminism is political. It is not about your individual happiness. You can be very unhappy and totally broken and have made bad choices and still be a feminist.

Caring about women is the only part of what you wrote that is really needed for being a feminist.

I'm a single woman and have no money and no career and my life in general is pretty shit. I made some pretty bad choices.
I still consider myself a feminist. Because I care about women and want to abolish patriarchy.

[TurtleEclipseofTheHeart]

Some people wouldn't see it as feminist but I found Naomi Stadlen's "What Mothers Do" really inspiring.

[Amaia10]

Hi Petal40

I've also become a follower on here since I posted a similar topic some weeks back ( think you may have dropped in on that)? All the responses were so helpful, so good luck.

I've been SAHM to 3 DC for 13 years and was also experiencing a bit of a confidence crises once the youngest started school and I finally got some headspace to see through the fog of young kids and all they entail. I'm no expert on feminist theory, I'm afraid, but I think all you can do is some soul-searching about what really motivates you in life.

If you need a career whether corporate, creative, vocational or whatever then by all means go for it, but if your gut instinct tells you that you would be inherently stressed trying to juggle family life with something else, then that's fine too. If you don't want to miss a day with your DC growing up, that's ok. The way I see it, I'm lucky to have a choice - so many women don't. Go with your instinct and hopefully things will all fall into place.

What about your DH - is he ok to be in the role of financial provider. Is he supportive?behat are his expectations and what motivates him? If he truly respects you for what you do and vice versa, it makes everything so much easier.

[Felascloak]

It is scary....I totally agree. Once you've seen it you can't under it either which makes it worse.

[erinaceus]

Take care of yourself Petal40

You have listed a lot of issues. I remember finding my thoughts overwhelming when I first became a feminist. Keep coming here, if it helps you. As someone said upthread, it is a political movement, not a cult.

Sounds like the slogan for FWR: "It's a political movement, not a cult."

[PalmerViolet]

I know Buffy, how weird is that!

[Petal40]

I've just read everyone's comments..many thanks all....I need to re read when kids are in bed ,so it sinks in.....so far my thoughts are...choices.well if we want a child with a partner,we have no choice to not give birth or be pregnant ,it's nature..so we have to take time of work for that,then to breast feed.dad can't do that..more time of work....that in itself leaves us vulnerable ,economically..so to be equal to men who don't HAVE to take time of work to give birth ,that needs addressing with better maternity benefits especially for single mums....tampax should be free,especially 100% for homeless women...but men don't have the expense of periods,so to make that equal they should be free...FGM....OMG WTAF....and increasing ......and in England...how the hell..sooo feminism isn't all about me and my lot..I'm bloody lucky to have a house ,running water ,access to doctors ,what about women at risk of an arranged marriage ( assuming they don't want one)... Women forced in to prostitution ...it's legal in Germany ...WTAF....men making millions hiring out rooms where women have to be abused by 3 men just to pay for the rent of the room,before then earning money by being abused by other men...but hey that's ok they are being paid.......is that all we are to men??? Sex on legs and a pair of hands to wash up.....I've bought the book housework....

[almondpudding]

There seems to be an idea floating around some parts of feminism and society that what feminism has done is fought for women not to be SAHMs and to work instead.

What feminism has actually done is fought for the rights of women. Many women did have limited rights at work and many continue to do so, and feminism does fight for those rights. But it has also fought for the rights for all women to be able to be SAHP. We have a recent history of removing children from women and of forcing mothers to work in work houses, mental institutions, laundries and of removing their children and sending them to Australia, or into forced adoption, or into an institution. And we did those things because the mother was young, disabled. unmarried, a victim of DV, a lesbian or frequently poor.

The right to tax credits and housing have allowed many women to be SAHMs for a period of their lives when in the past this would have been impossible. And we still make contemptuous benefits TV shows about some of them.

So I don't think feminism is, or ever was, mostly about the workplace. It's about women's rights.

I also don't think there will ever be a society where fathers collectively do as much childcare as mothers collectively, because very many women do not want to raise children with a man at all, and very many men are happy to get women pregnant and be solely a biological father not a social one.

[PalmerViolet]

If you're on Facebook, I can recommend a couple of maternal feminism pages.

It is a MASSIVE red herring to say that feminism is about choice for the reasons Buffy and others have stated.

I think one of the reasons that SAHPing became viewed as "not feminism" was because many first and second wave feminists fought to be allowed to work, to continue education and have that education recognised officially. They fought for properly regulated childcare, maternity rights, workers rights and remuneration and they did this in a much more overtly patriarchal society. The only option open to most women was to have children and stop working, or have no children and be allowed to continue to work. Even for working class women, the majority of whom went into service of one kind or another or, if they were lucky, shop work had to stop, often on their marriage. The military and Civil Service discharged women who became pregnant until relatively recently. Social mobility for women who had children was severely curtailed, and so feminists fought to change these things, but I don't believe they fought to change them so that everyone was forced to work when their skills and inclination lay elsewhere. The 'woman who has it all' meme seems misogynist as hell to me, because what it really means is that the woman DOES it all.

There are obvious cons to being a SAHP. Your CV suffers, however, as Lurcio has pointed out, this is easily surmountable with a change in business ethos. When your CV suffers, you are at your partner's mercy financially should anything go wrong. The fact that married women are better looked after by the law when relationships break down is merely another hangover from our paternalistic past, and is something that maternal feminists are looking at.

Feminism is for and about women, and because women are the sex class that becomes pregnant and has babies, then it also has to be about children.

I am a feminist. There are those who might suggest I am a fairly scary one I do try and make life decisions with the welfare of myself and other women in mind. I have made some decisions that make other feminists' toes curl. It's not a cult, it's a political movement.

I've seen you posting Petal, and nodded along to a lot of what you've said. It would be lovely to see you post here more often.

[MrsJayy]

I was a disabled sahm and feminist i am unable to earn an icome i have no young children anymore so i guess im just a disabled feminist being feminist imo is about how you perceive your role in life if you are happy if you are assertive enough about your choices if those choices benefit you and your family if you care about other women on a grander scale that is what I consider feminist

[houseeveryweekend]

Im a SAHM and i consider myself a feminist. I think that feminism is important in helping people not take our role for granted. Sometimes women have to do all of the things associated with this role and work. its like an invisible extra job. But it is a very important job that someone needs to do, weather its the father or mother or family member or someone external you pay.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

It is probably because of this choosey choice feminism, that somehow creates the illusion that feminism is some individual thing and that an individual woman can choose to not be oppressed under patriarchy anymore

I'm a bit odd here as I have less issues with choice.
For example if you look at the pay gap, there isn't much of a pay gap for 22-29 year olds. It kicks in at 30. These women and men are often child free so they have choices.

This makes me think a lot of the issues around pay are child related. When you have kids often one parent takes on the primary carer role and it's often the mother. So she ends up dropping her hours (and her hourly pay). Or leaving work altogether.
I'm trying to split all the child care and house work with dh as we both work ft. It's a constant juggling act and we are both struggling.

I personally think we need to reduce the long hours culture so both parents can put more time in at home.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

Hi petal I definitely think you can be a sahm and a feminist.

I really liked luricos point regarding full time work and the culture of presenteeism not read the links yet but I'll get round to it later

[VestalVirgin]

Housewives are, in some ways, the most oppressed under patriarchy. To say they cannot be feminist would be like saying an underpaid factory worker cannot be a communist? It doesn't make much sense.

Except, of course, you are of the opinion that the underpaid factory worker is not a victim of capitalism, but just too stupid to demand better payment.

It is probably because of this choosey choice feminism, that somehow creates the illusion that feminism is some individual thing and that an individual woman can choose to not be oppressed under patriarchy anymore, and that this then makes her a feminist.

That is not how a liberation movement works.

[chunkymum1]

Totally agree with Bertrand's/Buffy's comments about choice. However, I think choice (ie real choice, not just 'choosing' to do something because society expects it/it's not practical to do anything else) is relevant in the context of a discussion about feminism and SAHP.

In my vision of a future world where feminist thinking is the norm we could still have SAHMs. However, they would be people who have truly chosen that role and do it on equal terms with their partner (ie it does not make them financially dependent on their partner, they do not become responsible for cleaning up after their partner etc). There would also be a similar number of SAHPs on the same terms. There would also be male and female parents who work but are able (without limiting their career prospects) to leave work on time to collect their children and to otherwise arrange working hours to fit with children.

I think it's really interesting what PPs have said about men in the workplace/part time working. I'm not sure how we can get to a where women have an equal footing in the workplace when the idea that anyone who isn't willing to put work before all else is not really committed enough is so prevalent. I have previously worked with men (who are married to a SAHM or who only have weekend visits with their children) who have the attitude that women are just as able as men to arrange their family/child care such that they can 'work until the job is done'. In their minds the fact that fathers in general seem to be able to do this but not mothers is a reflection of the mothers' level of commitment.

[Felascloak]

I wish more men would work part-time. The long-hours presenteeism/five days a week model is unnecessary and unhelpful IMO. I honestly don't believe that more jobs couldn't be shared. What a coincidence that so many jobs require attendance for five days a week but I don't think many men want to opt in to joint responsibility for child-care/running of the household/family. Because they don't want to spend three or four days a week doing boring domestic chores.

Hear hear

Welcome petal. Personally I think the "you can't be a feminist and a SAHM" is crap dreamt up to divide women, by making feminists look like some other type of woman. It supports the feminazi/bra burning type thinking. I just ignore it.
Although I suppose it's possible that less feminists are the traditional kind of SAHM (I'm thinking 50 style doing literally everything at home) because feminists are more likely to have examined gender roles in society and rejected bits they feel expected to do. I could be wrong about that though.

[rogueantimatter]

I'm a SAHM and I consider myself a feminist.

I love it and feel very lucky that DP earns just about a good enough salary to allow for this - and that we don't live in the SE with its massive property prices. We don't have much disposable income though. Having said that, if I didn't have a low-grade health problem I'd probably enjoy WOHM part-time. The freedom to be greener, less structured, more flexible - nice weather? I'll work in the garden etc

IMO we -men and women - need to be honest about this. Some people enjoy domesticity/home-making and some people don't, regardless of its importance - which is most definitely undervalued. It's fine to admit that SAH-ing can be monotonous and potentially unsociable and that you'd rather WOH. It's fine to point out that it's nice not having office politics, a commute etc.

I wish more men would work part-time. The long-hours presenteeism/five days a week model is unnecessary and unhelpful IMO. I honestly don't believe that more jobs couldn't be shared. What a coincidence that so many jobs require attendance for five days a week but I don't think many men want to opt in to joint responsibility for child-care/running of the household/family. Because they don't want to spend three or four days a week doing boring domestic chores.

I am very interested in the representation of females in the media and culture in general, specifically the over-sexualisation of society and the under-representation of women in the news and sport. I still wear my no more page 3 t-shirt and try to avoid gender stereotyping.

I'd be offended if someone thought I wasn't a feminist because I'm a SAHM.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

Hmm, I wonder why it is that other liberation movements aren't described as being about choice. No-one says gay rights is about choice, even though there are choice-related things like the choice to marry or the choice to join the army. Likewise racial equality movements, even though choices to work in any career, live where you want, travel safely where you want, etc, are very much part of it. Is this because feminism is inherently different in a way I am missing?

[BertrandRussell]

[scallopsrgreat]

But yes Petal, you can definitely be a feminist and a SAHM.

Valuing childcare (and children) and the labour therein is pretty feminist. It's just you are aren't living in a feminist world. So that doesn't get valued by society, as a whole. Until, of course, it isn't done! And then its all women's fault.