Help me work this out please? (Relates to sexual assault victim blaming)

[PlumpFiction]

So I came across a Facebook post about an assault on a woman. (I'm not linking to it, sorry, I don't want to be outed). In among the comments were things like "What was she doing walking there at that time?" "I wouldn't walk there at that time of night!" etc. Crappy thing to say when someone has suffered a traumatic experience. Many people called them out on this, saying the only person to blame was the attacker, anyone should be free to walk anywhere, anytime, without being attacked. I quite agree.

Someone else made the point that you need to use common sense and take precautions - e.g. we lock up our houses and cars; we don't leave valuables on show in a parked car; etc. and saying it's the same with not walking in certain places at certain times. And this is where I feel conflict...

I agree that we should all take precautions to prevent us becoming victims of crime... If I was burgled because I'd left my house unlocked, it would be the burglar at fault but I would be kicking myself for forgetting to lock up... But something pisses me off about being told that women should not be in certain places at certain times in order to prevent them falling victim to a sex attack. Maybe this isn't a sexism/feminism issue, I don't know... because there were a few men who said things like "well I'm a 20st bearded man and I wouldn't walk there at that time"...

Help me work this out please? What are the issues here, why is there a difference? (Is there a difference?) Thank you :-)

[ChloeFrazer03]

Well, me personally, I would not walk late at night on a lonely dark street, but I don't think this is a societal issue, or "Teach men not to rape" Hear me out.

Rape is a crime, punishable by over 10 years in prison, we teach children that crime is a very bad thing to do. Instead of saying "Don't rape anyone" Perhaps we should teach them more about general consent and not taking advantage of ANYONE in ANY situation, instead of specifically rape. Just my opinion.

I think regardless of how much you teach people not to do something, there were always be people who will do it. Same with Murder, stealing, rape. People just sometimes are fucked up in the head and will do it anyway. So that's why we take precautions to protect ourselves. Perhaps if we provided all young people self defence classes in schools as well? Because when I was at school, we didn't have a self defense class, which I think we REALLY need. Not just exclusive to girls, but all children to learn how to defend themselves if needed.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I do walk home late in the dark. Always have and, mobility allowing, always will.

[almondpudding]

I do too. It would massively reduce what I am able to do in life if I couldn't.

[BeyondBootcampsAgain]

I wheel home. Often dont pass a single person

[BeyondBootcampsAgain]

(Ironically, if there were other people around i'd feel less safe)

[DrSeussRevived]

I walk home alone down a dark lonely road 2-3 times a week for several months a year. It's my route home from the station and it's dark by 6. Any thoughts, Chloe?

[Cel982]

For me, the distinction is between motive and opportunity. It's sensible to take steps to reduce the opportunity for someone to attack you - we shouldn't have to, obviously, but in the real world I would still advise my children (of either gender) not to walk alone at night, not to get so drunk that they don't feel in control, etc.

Blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt (or, indeed, someone wearing a Chelsea scarf in the wrong area) suggests that to do so has given their attacker some motive for assaulting them, and that they therefore share the blame - they were 'asking for it'. To my mind it's this attitude that seeks to absolve the offender from some of their responsibility.

Blaming the victim after the fact in either case is abhorrent.

[Badlittlesis]

I had a friend who was hospitalised after the 'crime' of wearing the wrong coloured scarf. A lot of people thought he was an idiot for walking in the wrong part of London.

He had a choice about wearing or not wearing the scarf. I don't get to leave my vagina, or for that matter any part of my body at home…

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

My place of work is in a 'red light' area i.e. prostitutes operate on the street my office building resides after normal office hours. I didn't choose this location as my place of work, my employer moved me to this location. There have been at least 2 reported rapes in an alleyway just a stones throw away from my office entrance. It is an unpleasant & potentially unsafe area to walk in, alone, at certain times.

I often work late - it always been a feature of my working hours/pattern of work. I have to walk down the street that's know for prostitution in order to get to my car, to get home. I'm acutely aware of the risks involved at certain times, but I'm going about my business & earning a living, and have no intention of giving up my long standing, well-paid job because the perceived risks involved due to the area my office happens to be in. Every time I leave my office outwith normal office hours, I'm very vigilant. But if someone attacked me, there's not a thing I could do about it.

If I was to be targeted by a rapist, is it my fault for being in this area 'at the wrong time'?

[ChloeFrazer03]

TensionWheelsCoolHeels It would not be your fault at all, you shouldn't be held accountable for someone else's actions.

[partialderivative]

So,
If women dressed 'modestly' as they went around town.
If teenage lads stopped strutting about certain areas of London
Shoppers restricted their shopping to day light hours...

There would be a lot less crime... but it would be not be down to a reduction in criminal intent.

I think I am beginning to get it

[OurBlanche]

It's that fine balance between living your life and refusing to change it in order to accommodate criminals and taking reasonable precautions about your own personal safety.

I have never seen why taking reasonable precautions is equated to victim blaming. Everyone, regardless of gender, should take reasonable precautions against all sorts of harm.

There is nothing a woman can do if a man chooses to rape, having been raped I know that I did nothing wrong, though with hindsight I could have made different choices that night and made it home safely, with friends.

[almondpudding]

The whole thing is hypocrisy anyway.

If all women refused to walk alone when it's dark, the whole of society would collapse.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Ourblanche, I'm curious - what 'reasonable precautions' should I take? I've worked in my current job for 15 years, and worked from my current location for 10 years. I can do nothing about prostitutes who work in the area, or the men who lurk in the area, and cannot force my employer to relocate their office premises. My work pattern for most of the past 10 years has included long, late, shifts. I have a personal alarm I've never used. Other than that I have absolutely nothing I can 'do differently' that would alter the likelihood of me being attacked by a rapist.

I work in a 'high risk' area and there have been rapes just around the corner from my office. I have the right to go about my business freely without fear & I've spent the past 10 years doing just that. My livelihood matters to me. My ability to earn & support myself & my child matters to me. I resent the very idea that I should have to even think about taking reasonable precautions just to be able to get to & from work, in order to avoid being attacked.

I'm sorry you have been through what you have but your decisions that night did not bring about your rape. You were not in any way to blame for your attack.

[DrSeussRevived]

"If women dressed 'modestly' as they went around town."
I
No one has said that except you, partial. Stranger rape "around town" isn't linked to clothing.

[OurBlanche]

Tension much the same as I used to take when walking home from work in a city centre pub.. be vigilant, look alert, walk home with a friend/colleague if one happens to leave the building at the same time, carry an umbrella with a knobbly handle, be prepared to run...

Mainly do what you are doing. Yes, you do have the right to walk without fear. But if that means ignoring the realities of the situation you are in then that is not a right I would rely on.

I am not sure what you expected me to say, I certainly didn't mean wear a suit of armour, cower indoors waiting to be saved, or changing your life/job/attitude in order to accommodate a fear!

And think I said quite plainly that I do not consider myself to have been, in anyway shape or form, responsible for what happened to me. Just that with that magical, ever late, hindsight (and maybe access to the Tardis) I could have done something differently. Not that I should have.

[ThisHorseCalledDonny]

tension slight derail to a fascinating thread but have you asked for a risk assessment?

You employer has a duty to provide you with a safe place of work, and safe access and egress.

So if they are asking you to get to a place of work in an area where people have been attacked, you could argue they should provide solutions to minimise the risk. (Secure, well lit car park etc)

Doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't happen of course.

[almondpudding]

So what if you're a teenage girl whose home is in a red light district?

Can you just announce you're not going to school in the winter months because it wouldn't be safe to get home? Or should schools have to provide a door to door taxi service for all girls who live in areas where any woman has ever been attacked?

[itllallbefine]

almond you get a man to chum you, then you'll be safe !

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

This, I can guarantee any 'risk assessment' would result in my working hours being cut, not any 'reasonable adjustments' like a parking space in a safe area. I'm often the only person left on my floor & cannot rely on anyone else leaving at the same time. I could no more outrun a toddler than a potential rapist, given that I'm in my 40s & overweight. I occasionally have my keys to hand(as a weapon) if I feel there is a reason to be more wary than usual but other than that, I cannot depend on risk assessments or doubling up with colleagues or outrunning any attacker.

The bottom line is, I go to & from work in an area which to most people would be 'high risk' & which would illicit responses along the lines of 'why was she working late?' or 'why was she alone at that time?' I work because I have to & I work there because I've spent 15 years building my career & earn good money (which I'd never get elsewhere - I'm in a very fortunate position financially for what I do). I am very aware & vigilant whenever I'm working late, but there's literally nothing else I can do to minimise the risk of being raped/attacked.

[OurBlanche]

Do you have a lone worker policy? Do you think asking about one would help? That would depend on your HR dept, I imagine.

www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/workers/lone.htm

www.healthyworkinglives.com/advice/Legislation-and-policy/employee-issues/lone-working#legal

And I used to carry keys too, poking up through my fingers. It isn't a pleasant thing to do, it really makes you feel frail and vulnerable - at any age.

[ThisHorseCalledDonny]

almond

Not my area of expertise I'm afraid.

I just do lone working in dodgy areas and have some knowledge of using elf n safety laws to help push employers make things a bit safer.

[peggyundercrackers]

Tension of course there are things you can do to help protect yourself - of course these things wouldn't stop someone trying to attack you but they can help you defend yourself if you are attacked.

[Kitchencrayon]

I haven't had time to read all the posts but this is something I struggled with for a while as someone who has been on the victim side.

So, I have some responsibility TO MYSELF to take precautions. If only in a way that means any "gut feeling" is paid attention to. Those precautions are whatever I deem them to be.

However, that's just about me. Ultimately I have absolutely NO RESPONSIBILITY for the actions of someone else. Any attacker of any sort makes a choice and that decision is on their shoulders, and theirs alone.

[PalmerViolet]

So what if you're a teenage girl whose home is in a red light district?

The point will be moot soon anyway, if certain people get their way. And prostituted women will be made to work from industrial estates where they will be hidden away from proper people and not lower their house prices when they get raped or murdered.

Anyway, back to the thread...

It's old, but it's true... most rapes are perpetrated by men known to their victims, so, in actual fact, the best way to stop men raping you is to never have anything to do with any men ever again.

Which would be nigh on impossible and also ridiculous.

Just like all this advice on how to keep yourself safe. It's being given to the wrong sex.