Help me learn about feminism!

[MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom]

I'm ashamed to say I'm pretty clueless about feminism. Part of this new emerging generation where few would consider themselves feminist, and even fewer would be vocal about it. I'm not sure where I stand - obviously I'm aware that there are still gaping holes in women's rights, and that sexism can come from all angles - I've experienced it from other women as well as from men - but I've never gone so far as to do things like write 'womyn', nor do I subscribe to the 'all men are potential rapists' (only because IMO by that notion, all humans are potential thieves, all humans are potential murderers - it isn't something that really needs to be said).

Apart from that (and even then, I may have gotten it all wrong), I don't really know much about feminism, but I really want to learn. I've got a baby DD and I want to raise her to not feel like she has to conform to a stereotype based on the fact that she is female. But there are some things where I don't know if I'm causing more harm than good - she wears a lot of pink, but that's just because I like pink. She also has plenty of clothes in all colours. Does that make it ok to dress her in pink, or should I stop dressing her like that because it's encouraging shops to only stock pink for girls, blue for boys? I do hate the fact that if I dress her in blue or any colour other than pink, people mistake her for a boy - I'm not annoyed that people mistake her for a boy, more that people insist that I should be dressing her in pink all the time.

So I was hoping people could maybe answer my questions about feminism. If any of these are using the wrong terminology, or seem offensive, I wholeheartedly apologise - as I say, I'm pretty clueless really. These are all out of curiosity and a desire to know more.

1. Do most/any feminists hate men, just for the simple fact of being born male?
   
2. I've done a bit of reading around about the issues with feminism and transactivism, but a lot of it is going over my head. Does anyone have a layman's terms explanation?
   
3. What is the definition of male privilege? Does female privilege exist? Does every man have male privilege, and does this make him a bad person?
   
4. In an ideal world, what would men do with regards to feminism? Do most feminists want them to campaign for female rights alongside them? Or is this seen as condescending/male privilege again?
   
5. Is the anger towards men who exist by the gender stereotypes, or towards a society that has created the gender stereotypes? Who can solve this?
   
   Thanks, I'm sorry there's so many questions, it's just something that really interests me. My parents always just had a catch-all policy of treating others as I'd want to be treated (but giving as good as I get if someone mistreats me), but I want to know more about feminism and what it is, and how I can raise my daughter to still treat people as she'd want to be treated, but to not feel bound by gender stereotypes.

[BertieBotts]

MRAs are bloody terrifying with their Neanderthal views, they don't stand up for any "rights" that any decent man I know would want, only knobhead ones.

[PetulaGordino]

yup, because it means them acknowledging and giving up privileges

[MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom]

So rather than actually campaigining for men's rights, MRA are actually campaigning to silence women?

Bloody hell. Why do they feel so threatened by the idea of equality?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

That Link! I could have gone my whole life without hearing the term "crotch dumpling".

Do they not realise that they are crotch dumplings too?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Oh and why aren't those MRAs aren't actively campagning for women's rights and women's cancers and for the million things that affect women? Because that isn't their job.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

moomin don't worry your pretty little female head about it, trust the MRAs. Feminist really don't care about those things because they aren't fixing them for them.. like we should be fixing them sandwiches.

Make him a fucking sandiwch and cure prostate cancer. That's what a good woman does.

[LurcioAgain]

Well, one would think your reasoning was clear enough, Moomin, but in my experience MRAs are not noted for their skills at logical reasoning.

[MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom]

But people do care about violence against males, don't they? From the definitions here, I do consider myself a feminist, but I still care about male-specific cancers, and violence against men... because they can affect men I care about. My dad's family has a long history of prostate cancer, putting him at high risk of getting it himself, and my brother... surely the fact that I (and presumably other women who consider themselves feminist) care about cancers affecting primarily men as well as those considered 'women's cancers', shows that it can't be feminists' fault?

[Squidstirfry]

Ah I see...

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

It's hard to not sigh and do a "wah wah wah" noise every time you say the word aloud to be honest.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

"men's rights" activist. Except they aren't. They mostly just whine about feminists. They really hate feminist.

Feminists are the reason no one cares about violence against males (by males)

Feminists are the reason more men commit suicide than woman despite women attempting suicide more frequently

Feminists are the reason men don't get their children in custody cases not because men havn't done the child care before the marriage ended

Feminists are the reason more money isn't thrown at men's cancer charities (not that women actively campaign for breast cancer and men don't do as much for male cancers)

[Squidstirfry]

Sorry to interrupt, what is an MRA please?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

don't leave on my account! Disagreeing isn't derailing.

[LurcioAgain]

No, don't bow out Bigmouth - I think raising questions about intersectionality is massively important, and what you've done is to come back and explain your position in a more nuanced way which shows you weren't intending to derail. Please stick around!

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

I am sure you are right Really.

I am geting myself tied up in knots because I am trying to explain my personal point of view in a thread about Feminism, not me. This is not helpful so I am bowing out. Respectfully. The point I was making was not really relevant I should stop derailing.

[vesuvia]

OP wrote - "Do most/any feminists hate men"

It would not suprise me if the idea that "feminists hate men" orginated as a form of projection by misogynistic men (that is, men who definitely do hate women) who claim that they "love women". Yeah, right . They love women to be their domestic servants, their rape victims, their porn stars and their prostitutes etc. If that is what such men think is "love", then can we be surprised that they have a similar distorted view of what "hate" is (basically anything that they think isn't "love for them")?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

So in other words Petula. Because vagina. I mean short of having major surgery to "correct" your reproductive capabilities and giving a certificate to your employer..there isn't much you can do to work around that.

[LurcioAgain]

Sorry if I misread you, bigmouth. And for my part I don't deny that intersectionality is important. I think we need both class analysis and feminist analysis - we just have to be careful how we frame the discussion so as not to set it up as a competition where caring about one supposedly means not caring about the other (MRA derailing techniques 101).

To return to the "Manchester sink estates in the 70s/80s" example - arguably if one insisted on playing under privilege top trumps, because this was the period when the conservatives set out to break the unions even if it meant the destruction of traditional manufacturing industry in the process (yes I know, full story is more complex) arguably this might count as a rare instance where women of a given social class found themselves with better life chances than men of the same class due to the rise of the new service industries - but it's a rare reversal of what I'd say is a general rule: take any given class and within it women usually have less opportunities than men (same argument goes for black vs white, gay vs straight).

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Intersectionality from a feminist point, means (to me anyway) helping women in whatever was their personal circumstances require.

It's about being aware that a black middle class woman is dealing with a whole set of other challenges because she is a black woman than a white middle class woman. And about addressing those barriers.

It's not about men whatever their circumstances.

Have I got that wrong? From a feminist perspective? Genuine question.

[PetulaGordino]

"There was a very interesting thread not long ago monty where several people admitted (on a website for mothers) that they don't hire women of breeding age."

i have had that said to my face in a social situation - that they would not hire me because of the combination of my age and sex. i have all the other attributes of privilege - white, educated, heterosexual, able-bodied, reasonably affluent parents

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

I suppose that is how I am coming across. I can see that - but I find the lack of context with some feminist discussion an irritant. That is just how my mind works. I still consider feminism important but it needs context and ideas like intersectionality help address that.

I still support feminist campaign aims. I see the need to improve conditions for women. Schemes to help, for example women coffee farmers in the Congo get a fair price for their crops - helps the community at large and the women in particular. It is all good. Women in prison for e.g. are also in need of a different approach - they need support to keep links with their children/ family - they should be in a more local prison. The sentencing structure for crimes that women are generally incarcerated for is also an issue. Short sentences for a minor crime can be catastrophic for a young mother, possibly causing her to loss custody of children, and damaging relationships. A feminist analysis can help to address these issues.

I would hate to be considered MRA proponent. If that is how I am coming across that is a problem with the way I am communicating not because I am some lackey of the patriarchy - I hope.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Bigmouth apologies if I gave the impression it doesn't matter it does. I am from a poor back ground. And from the states where we don't have a social system that really helps you out of that place unless you are a genuine overachiever. I left school at 16. I am looking at it form the angle of a woman who is confused as to why it only seems to matters that young men aren't finding jobs, young men are finding themselves in prison, young men are poor.

It seems to happen in a vagina free vacuum. And yes, I have seen tv documentaries and news articles.. loads of them. I have never seen an article entitled "Why are young working class black woman doing so badly"? Unless maybe they are all doing awesome and I am super behind the times.

[LurcioAgain]

Bigmouth - aren't you in danger of simply using the "but this problem is more important than that one" technique so beloved of MRAs? Why are we (as women) not allowed to say "I get that class is a massive system of oppression, and I'm very glad that there are people out there tackling the problem of the way, say, Dalits are treated in India - but no one single person can tackle all of the world's problems at once, and I personally want to concentrate on helping to provide better sanitation facilities for Dalit women, because while both men and women in that caste have an unimaginably shitty life, it's the women who are in danger of being raped when they go to the toilet."

Your post does smack of "whataboutery" and the refusal to accept that one can (a) care about more than one thing but (b) accept that human limitations on one's time and energy means one has to make a decision about what to campaign about.