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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radical feminism - what's that all about then?

40 replies

scallopsrgreat · 02/06/2014 11:53

As promised on the Pub thread here is a thread about radical feminism. The question was asked as to whether people considered themselves radical feminists and moved on to what that actually consisted of.

There was also a bit of confusion as to what radical feminist theory consisted of. So here are a few questions to get us started:

  1. What does radical feminism mean to you?
  2. What aspects of feminist theory would you attribute to radical feminism?
  3. What makes someone a radical feminist?
  4. What makes radical feminism different from other strands of feminism?

    Please don't feel obliged to answer all the questions or feel free to ask some more of your own!
OP posts:
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calmet · 02/06/2014 16:32

I have always understood Dworkin's quote to mean that equal pay is revolutionary, because you can not bring that about, without having a revolutionary change to the system.

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MiniTheMinx · 02/06/2014 16:38

But she says “Feminists know that if women are paid equal wages for equal work, women will gain sexual as well as economic independence" which is illogical.

Another reason why this is illogical is this, if women's oppression is transhistorical, the original form of oppression, then that oppression existed before wages, and therefore exists irrespective of whether anyone receives wages equal or otherwise. But it only exists in a system where one class economic or sex based exploits the labour of the other, but why might one sex class exploit the labour reproductive or productive of the other? This always puzzles me because when you boil it down, a radical feminist will say because they do, whereas I will say because they need to because of changes to the economic base structure.

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allhailqueenmab · 02/06/2014 17:01

“Feminists know that if women are paid equal wages for equal work, women will gain sexual as well as economic independence"

I think if you pay less literal heed to the precise meaning of "wages" you come out with something like: if women are materially independent of men, they are no longer dependent on sexual service to men for survival


I know the whole business of wages is very problematic from a Marxist perspective. I actually think that feminism has paid insufficient attention to the fact that joining in the capitalist rat race is in a way substituting one set of problems for another (though I have to admit the problems of being an employee are a nice set of problems to have relative to not being allowed to get a job or own a house)

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FloraFox · 02/06/2014 17:58

If you locate the root of oppression in women's biological sex, then nothing will liberate us.

I agree with a lot of what you've said mini but I don't agree with this statement unless you think the oppression is inevitable, which you could say about any axis of oppression.

if women are materially independent of men, they are no longer dependent on sexual service to men for survival

I agree with this entirely. My grandmother insisted my mother got qualified for a career so that she would be (barely) financially independent. The "barely" part because of unequal pay. Financial dependence is one very compelling method by which women's sexual and reproductive labour is placed at the service of men. Improvements in financial independence for women have radically changed the lives of women over the last two generations.

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UptoapointLordCopper · 02/06/2014 18:04
Smile
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MiniTheMinx · 02/06/2014 18:26

If you locate the root of oppression in women's biological sex, then nothing will liberate us

No I don't agree with this statement, but was critiquing this statement
"Radical feminism, in my understanding, locates this root in the male colonisation of female sexuality and reproductive capacity" which suggests that our oppression is inevitable. Maybe I was unclear, sorry.

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FairPhyllis · 03/06/2014 12:14

My impressions of radical feminism:

  1. What does radical feminism mean to you?

    A school of feminism which seeks to unflinchingly understand and name the root of women's oppression.

  2. What aspects of feminist theory would you attribute to radical feminism?

    A class analysis of patriarchy - patriarchy as the system by which men-as-a-class oppress women-as-a-class. This system also punishes men who do not conform to expectations of "masculine" behaviour, e.g. gay men, men who want to express behaviours perceived as "feminine". This view does not seek to deny other forms of oppression (e.g. oppression of people of colour), but sees male oppression of women as the all-pervasive primary organising oppression in all societies.
    Male violence and fear of male violence as the force which underpins patriarchy.
    Gender roles as being socially constructed and distinct from biological sex. Men and women are conditioned into masculine and feminine gender roles from birth.
    Gender as a social hierarchy used to enforce a power structure in which men dominate women.
    Pornography and prostitution as forms of male violence which reinforce women's oppression.

  3. What makes someone a radical feminist?

    Having a commitment to getting to the root of women's oppression. A commitment to naming women's oppression and male violence, and improving one's understanding of that oppression. Activism of some form probably follows!

  4. What makes radical feminism different from other strands of feminism?

    Woman-centred, emphasis on female-only organising.
    Emphasis on gender as a social construct and biological sex as the root of women's oppression.
    Belief that male oppression of women is the "original" oppression.
    Focus on abolishing gender and changing current social structures rather than trying to gain equality within them - focus is on liberation, not equality.
    Focus on naming oppression as the first step to liberation.
    Radical feminists are not necessarily straightforwardly of the Left - they may reject the Left as being riddled with misogyny and woman-oppressing goals and structures.
    Some distinctive practices among some (by no means all) radical feminists such as separatism, political lesbianism, abstaining from PIV sex.
    Less emphasis on academic theory for its own sake, more emphasis on using theory as a tool to help women understand their own experiences and name their oppression.
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calmet · 03/06/2014 12:22

I agree that some radical feminists embrace political lesbianism and separatism. But do some women who are not radical feminists. I think those two philosophies are ones that overlap for a lot of radical feminists, rather than being an inherent part of radical feminism.

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calmet · 03/06/2014 12:28

Mini, Dworkin is saying that liberal feminists see equal pay as a simple reform that can be achieved within the current system. Dworkin is saying that achieving equal pay is only possible with a complete overthrow of patriarchy.

And yes, men relying on women's labour is about much more than paid work. It is about women doing the bulk of housework, childcare, gathering food, gathering water and fuel, and sexual services.

In terms of whether women's oppression is inevitable, radical feminists are split on this. Some do indeed think it is inevitable that women are oppressed by men, and this belief led directly to the establishment of women's land as a partial solution for some women. Others do not think it is inevitable, and point to the evidence of anthropologists to show that women have not been oppressed by men in every culture.

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allhailqueenmab · 03/06/2014 12:39

""Radical feminism, in my understanding, locates this root in the male colonisation of female sexuality and reproductive capacity" which suggests that our oppression is inevitable. "

I think the key words here are "male colonisation of...." - the oppression is not inevitable, any more than it is inevitable that the darker skinned be oppressed. The truth of the reproductive capacity (or the skin colour) does not lead automatically to a class choosing, and being able to, oppress on that basis

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 03/06/2014 14:27

I have no answers to the op (that's why I asked in the pub Grin but this is facinating reading.

I put women and girls first, not because I'm indifferent to the injustices faced by boys and men, but because someone has to. I would like to reshape the world in the interests of the freedom and full humanity of women and girls, and this means that most social, economic and cultural institutions need to be radically re-imagined or abolished. This is deeply uncomfortable for many women, and outright resisted by men.

Donkey can I ask what this means in your real life? Do you mean that you concern yourself with feminism over other causes more or that in actual practice you choose to help women over men? Like if you were hiring and you had a male and female candidate ad maybe the was slightly more qualified (or even a lot more qualified) would you still prioritize the female candidate?

I think I probably would. Men have been benefiting from the very same for so long it only seems fair.

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Beachcomber · 03/06/2014 14:45

What Dworkin means is that the day women are considered worthy of equal wages is the day they will no longer be considered lower status/the sex class/other/less human than men/chattel/wifeworkers/etc.

She isn't saying that equal wages will bring about equality but that only equality can bring about equal wages. And equality for Dworkin means that women are no longer expected to provide sexual and domestic services for men and society is no longer male dominant and the cultural hegemony of male dominance has disappeared. She is quite right that that would indeed be the revolution.

Dworkin is saying that as long as the current structures, forms and foundations of oppression remain (particularly sex as a category), women will not achieve equal pay by employment law alone - a politico-socio cultural shift will be required too (the revolution). She is talking about a paradigm shift.

And so far she is right. The law has changed but attitudes and culture and the status of girls and women have not; and equal pay exists nowhere in the world currently.

However, what I came on to post was a general comment about what radical feminism means to me. Radical feminism is concerned with all women. All women. That means the liberation and awarding of full human status to all girls and women no matter what their age, colour of skin, appearance, educational opportunities, social class, sexual orientation etc. Nobody will be left behind. And that in itself is revolutionary and it is why we are against institutions such as prostitution and porn which disproportionately affect women of colour and poor women.

Another quote from Dworkin, expressing the above;

“I'm going to ask you to remember the prostituted, the homeless, the battered, the raped, the tortured, the murdered, the raped-then-murdered, the murdered-then-raped; and I am going to ask you to remember the photographed, the ones that any or all of the above happened to and it was photographed and now the photographs are for sale in our free countries. I want you to think about those who have been hurt for the fun, the entertainment, the so-called speech of others; those who have been hurt for profit, for the financial benefit of pimps and entrepreneurs. I want you to remember the perpetrator and I am going to ask you to remember the victims: not just tonight but tomorrow and the next day. I want you to find a way to include them the perpetrators and the victims in what you do, how you think, how you act, what you care about, what your life means to you.

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DonkeySkin · 03/06/2014 16:25

If you locate the root of oppression in women's biological sex, then nothing will liberate us. Whilst its not new for women to be treated as less than human, I'm thinking about 550bc Athens as an example, it was the division of labour into the public and private that brought about the subordination of women. And yes that was possible because of our sex. However this distinction and separation between the private and public spheres comes into being with the formation of class society/city states and a change in the mode of production from tribal/small self sufficiency to creating surplus/exchange systems that allow one class to live off of the exploitation of another. As with slavery.

It's not the case that women's oppression didn't exist in pre-industrial and non-capitalist societies. In the majority of hunter-gather societies, women are an exploited and oppressed class. I remember reading in an anthropology class of a southern African HG society, in which women collected 80 per cent of the food, did the majority of the child care, and built and disassembled the temporary huts the tribe lived in. If they failed to perform any of these tasks to their husbands' specifications, their husbands beat them. Girls from age 14 were also exchanged as chattel between men of different bands for sexual use. The anthropologists documenting this society described it as 'non socially stratified'. My point is that women have been treated as exploited caste and as property by men before property was even invented.

Just because the idea that women's oppression is rooted in biological sex is disturbing, is not a reason to reject the truth of that analysis. Women's reproductive capacity is the material basis underlying our oppression. Although it's worth specifying, as a previous poster did, that it's actually men's exploitation of that capacity, enforced through violence, that is the root, rather than our reproductive capacity per se.

I agree that it is a disturbing conclusion. In some ways it is analogous with the Marxist analysis of the class system, but the key difference is that the material conditions underlying labour exploitation can be abolished, whereas the biological differences between the sexes can't be. This blog post on the radical feminist analysis of gender explains this key point well, I think:

A fourth implication I find interesting here is the nontrivial difference between this materialist analysis, and that of, say, Marx. Marxist economic determinism also holds that culture is predicated on material conditions. For labour class politics, these conditions are economic, and in a real way this means the predicating material conditions are cultural products/organising principles in themselves. It is nontrivial, then, that the material conditions at the root of sex class politics are also biological. Can this be overcome by ‘revolution’ in the same way? If a man and woman were in a vacuum from society, would his strength and her reproductive vulnerability – and their mutual knowledge of these facts – be enough in itself to preclude the possibility of equal power distribution? Can society manufacture parameters that can overcome this, or is separatism the only way?

rootveg.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/gender-is-a-social-construct/

I think the way forward for feminists is for women grasp the fact that men have always tried to control us because we give birth (and they also deeply resent us because of this ability), and to organise politically to ensure that we reclaim the means of production, so to speak (i.e., our sexuality and reproductive capacity). This ultimately means dismantling gender, since gender is the key ideological system that enforces this control.

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Beachcomber · 03/06/2014 17:10

Agreed DonkeySkin.

In my mind women are the means of production.

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DonkeySkin · 04/06/2014 04:40

Donkey can I ask what this means in your real life? Do you mean that you concern yourself with feminism over other causes more or that in actual practice you choose to help women over men? Like if you were hiring and you had a male and female candidate ad maybe the was slightly more qualified (or even a lot more qualified) would you still prioritize the female candidate?

It does mean that all my political views are filtered through a feminist lens, and my activism is focused on women. It's also made me reevaluate how I respond to men and women in IRL (unpacking internalised misogyny and unconscious deference to males).

My work doesn't involve hiring people directly, but I am often called upon to accept or reject pieces of work, and I do consciously try to promote female voices, although, OTOH, I wouldn't accept a sub-standard piece of work just because it was by a woman, nor would I overlook a good piece by a man (sorry for this vague description of my job!).

YY to FairPhyllis's explication of what radical feminism typically involves in terms of specific political positions and actions.

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