"Teaching men not to rape"

[Opshinz]

I been noticing more and more people spitting rhetoric like this. I love freedom of speech and surely they should be allowed to say this, but.. rather then describe my feelings perhaps I can give an example.

Imagine I was giving a lecture and said "We really need to teach women to stop killing children", or "We really need to teach black people not to eat so much fried chicken".

Anyone have any thoughts?

[confuddledDOTcom]

I think we're talking a delicate balance though, I've said that and not felt forced into it. Which I think is what you're saying SandorCleganeIsInnocent. It's a kind of "yeah, yeah, if you must" rather than, I really don't want to and don't feel I have a choice. I don't think a man is always aware that is the case, I'm not saying this is a conscious choice he's making and I bet a lot of men would be horrified if they thought it was. It's that fine balance that men need to realise happens, to know how his partner is feeling and the times it's been shady.

I've had a whole night without sleep so I hope I'm making sense, it is in my head but not sure it means anything on here.

[confuddledDOTcom]

OK, Buffy isn't as tired as me and did a better job

[BertieBotts]

I think that from reading mumsnet in general I am unusual in this, but I never ever say oh go on then. It's always OK, I'm open to persuasion, persuade me. Or just no.

It might be because I've been in the "Oh go on then" category to avoid moodiness and sulking and blame in previous relationships and found it to be damaging, but I'm really intolerant to it now and if I'm not in the mood then I make it clear whether I'm open to being tipped into the mood or not, but I never ever have sex when I'm not in the mood at all.

Sometimes DH can't be bothered with the persuasion part so leaves it, occasionally the persuasion doesn't work so we leave it, but 99% of the time it does work and when it doesn't, the respect is still there. I think it's far clearer than saying "But it's OK if you do it when you don't really mind but you're not interested and it's a nice thing to do for your partner", but that might just be my previous experience talking.

[Keepithidden]

What you're all saying makes sense.

It's that fine balance that men need to realise happens, to know how his partner is feeling and the times it's been shady

This is what scares me most. It's not easy to tell, particularly with the backdrop of societal conditioning. Far better to operate on a precauitonary prinicple angle than vear into suspect territory I think.

[confuddledDOTcom]

I think for me that's been the same thing, I've said go on then when he's put the work in. If I say no and mean no that's all that gets said. I think I have twice had a man go on regardless (not talking about the time I was raped by a stranger) one time I hit him and shouted until he stopped and the other I was shattered and couldn't be bothered but made it clear.

I've had a few times I've been so tired that next day I sheepishly ask what happened and after a bit of ribbing found out I fell asleep before anything happened and was left alone. Which is as it should be.

[BertieBotts]

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong, then, but at the time for me when I say "OK persuade me" then it definitely isn't "Oh go on then" by the time it gets to serious foreplay/intercourse, it's "Oh yes please"

[Beatrixparty]

I note that sulking is given by Women's Aid as a sign of domestic abuse, here.

Keep smiling and be happy, Boys and Girls - else there might one day be a rat-a-tat-tat on your door by the good folks from the Department of Happiness - "Been a little down in the dumps have we, Sir/Madam ? - come along now, we don't want no trouble... "

[confuddledDOTcom]

maybe just a little of my humour.

Beatrix, if you've ever been with a sulker you will know exactly what they mean!

[BertieBotts]

YYY it's definitely sulking as a control tactic! Not just having a crap day

[Beatrixparty]

Bertie

Sulking as a control tactic ? you prove it, we'll come along quietly.

B xx

[Beatrixparty]

Buffy

You're no scientist, I understand ?

[SandorCleganeIsInnocent]

It's great that coercion is defined when it comes to court Beatrix but I do think there should be more awareness of the definition in general I.e in schools so that there can be no cases of genuine or feigned ignorance regarding persuasion/coercion.

Ideally, everyone should stick to the rule that everyone involved should be no less than enthusiastic but anytime I say this a million people pop up to defend crappy obligation sex.

[Beatrixparty]

Sandor

I have not given a definition of coercion, but consent is not consent if it is achieved by oppressive means.

What is this nonsense about 'enthusiastic' consent - if that is your baseline, that's what lying defendants are going to be saying, she was 'enthusiastic' - its still her word against his.

let's try it shall we: I'll be the defendant shall I ? you be prosecuting counsel. [No leading questions by the way]

D: No, that wasn't the way it was, she was up for it, really up for it - enthusiastic like...

{your turn}

[BertieBotts]

I disagree. I think using enthusiastic consent as a baseline is better. It's not just about prosecutions, it's about general perception. Enthusiastic consent looks very different to "Oh go on then but be quick" or "If I close my eyes and pretend he's someone else maybe it won't hurt so much" or "I've got to get back to my children". Coerced consent is currently recognised as illegal but hard to prove.

[SandorCleganeIsInnocent]

It's great that coercion is defined when it comes to court Beatrix but I do think there should be more awareness of the definition in general I.e in schools so that there can be no cases of genuine or feigned ignorance regarding persuasion/coercion.

Ideally, everyone should stick to the rule that everyone involved should be no less than enthusiastic but anytime I say this a million people pop up to defend crappy obligation sex.

[Beatrixparty]

Buffy

....unless one is subjecting its discourse to post-structural critique, I suppose?

Up your own arse, more than usual today, I see

[Beatrixparty]

Bertie

Yes, but isn't there real and proper 'consent' below that of 'enthusiastic' that you are ignoring. Are you really saying that - of itself - sex after 'oh go on then but be quick', is rape ?

[BertieBotts]

No of course it's not rape. But it's not ideal and it's also only a step away from "I'll do it to stop him moaning/prevent him being an arse" which, again, while it isn't actually rape over an extended period of time it could be seen as sexual abuse.