Fed up with women being described as "girls". Name and shame the worst culprits.

[MardyBra]

Nick from The Apprentice for starters.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Ladies does usually sound awful. I rarely make a point of countering with women though, as it sounds bolshy at the time but it is what I'd use naturally... except that I do use ladies, with women who I think expect it and would be offended if I used women!

Generally, I think ladies is appropriate if you are addressing people who you'd address individually as 'Mrs X' or 'Miss Y' rather than their first names. Generally older women or in a formal situation.

Otherwise it makes the speaker sound uncomfortable with women as people, so placing a barrier of formality, comic formality, or faux respect (which can actually be either smarmy, leery or insulting) between them and the women they're addressing, to distance themselves.

I'm afraid 'boys and ladies' falls into one of those categories. It sounds as though you're comfortable and jokey with you male friends but see the women as 'other', as a group, not as real friends. I say sounds like because I expect it's habit and you'll tell me they'd rather be called ladies and address each other that way (plenty do).

Other women, like me, will hear it as distancing and as a restrictive definiton conveying an expectation of 'nice' unchallenging behaviour.

Being called a lady always gives me a childish urge to behave in a very unladylike way - because I'm not a lady in the titled sense and haven't signed up to any code of restrictive 'ladylike' behaviour and I'm not going to accept you trying to impose one upon me. I'm a fairly kind and well-mannered woman though, so I usually don't.

[DixonBainbridge]

Oh no, I only say Ladies with women I'm comfortable with & know - thinking about it, it's in a jokey way that I say it. If I walked up to them & said "Morning Women" they'd think I'd gone mad, & "Morning Girls" wouldn't be at all appropriate (at least one is my senior in both age & position).

If I didn't know them at all then I wouldn't use any group salutation, it's probably the same for a group of men, I'd just say "morning" or "morning all"...

[DixonBainbridge]

I'm not going to accept you trying to impose one upon me. isn't this a case of reading things into a polite greeting that aren't intended?

Not being silly, but what are people to do? The Oxford Dictionary has "a polite or formal way of referring to a woman" as it's first definition of Lady. So being Polite is now an imposition?

[lottiegarbanzo]

I used the term 'ladylike' a lot to prompt thoughts about what being a 'lady' might mean and what it might exclude.

All greetings carry expectations, whether conscious or not. Addressing a room full of people as 'ladies and gentlemen' is in part showing respect, in part requesting a certain style of behaviour from them in response. Similarly, choosing to address a room full of older teenagers as 'ladies' or 'gentlemen' conveys an acknowledgement of near-adulthood along with an expectation of adult behaviour.

You could just as well say that the OP is 'reading things into' a friendly greeting when she expresses discomfort at the man who runs her choir using 'girls' to adult women. He probably doesn't set out to patronise and belittle but he is doing so.

That's the thing with language. It's use is mostly unconscious but it has become embedded as a result of social training and experience, so it reflects societal norms and expectations. You can only start to examine and challenge those norms when you step back and consider the meaning behind what you are saying and how its use may affect others, your ideas about others and perpetuate social values. (I think that must be on day 1 of 'feminism 101').

You could say this whole thread is about people 'reading things into' perfectly nice, well-intended greetings. Or you could step back and consider why it is common to refer to adults as 'men and girls' or to women as 'ladies' and what this says about our culture and the people who use these terms.

[grimbletart]

I give talks to people of all ages. I found that the easiest way is to say "Good afternoon everyone" as it gets round the issue of sex and age.
But of course, that doesn't work if you are referring to, say, friends when you are talking to someone else.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Ref 'The Lady is a Tramp' sung by Ella Fitzgerald. She does what she wants, when she wants and enjoys life enormously - hence, according to social norms at the time, she is not a lady.

'Ladies' isn't the worst thing you could say, tone counts for a lot and, as I said, I use it myself sometimes because it is widely expected. Still makes me cringe a little.

Alright Laydeeez?

[DixonBainbridge]

Easiest for me to ask the people I use the greeting with what they prefer TBH, but given their senior status and their "trade" I'm pretty sure they'd have torn me a new one if I'd been unreasonable.

So please, what gender specific greeting would you find agreeable to address a group of women? I'm thinking that you could ask 100 women the same question & get a myriad of answers.

I'm personally not convinced that "Ladies" is a norm that requires challenging & examining, but I am that "Girls" (coming from a man) probably does as that does come across as belittling, which actually drags me back onto the OP's track....

[Bonsoir]

I get much more annoyed about my family (DP 48, me 47, DSS1 18, DSS2 16 and DD 8) being collectively addressed as "Guys" as in hotel receptionists or waiters saying "Hi Guys how are you today?".

[DixonBainbridge]

I must admit, the only one that really grips me is being called "mate" by someone I don't know. Whether some scrotey teen on a till or a drunk in the pub - hate it!!

[lottiegarbanzo]

I suppose I wonder why you need to be gender specific. Why not 'hello everyone'?

I'd say you can only arrive at a view about what needs changing after you've examined it but we are all starting from a point of having noticed and thought about these things already.

[DixonBainbridge]

I suppose because I've always said hi guys, hi ladies etc. As I said, I'll have a chat with the ladies at work (women seems too impersonal in this sentence) & see what their view is.

Unless they have an issue with it I don't see a need to change.

[EBearhug]

I tend to say "hello everyone" when I'm not just ignoring everyone because I haven't woken up properly yet.

I find "ladies" can quite often be used in a patronising way, at least in my experience at work. But it doesn't tend to get me quite as riled as "girls" does - especially when used by a man at work who is not as senior as I am, and I am old enough to be his mother. He didn't do it again, at least not in my hearing.

But the one that really used to wind me up was my mother saying, "We're all going out on Friday, all of us girlies at work." She was in her late 50s, and she's never been pink and fluffy, not at all girly - more likely to be wielding a sledgehammer in the garden than anything else.

I don't mind "guys" to mean "everyone", though. I wouldn't use "chaps" unless I'm in a Biggles mood - "I say, chaps! What's going on here?"

[ThinkAboutItTomorrow]

My lovely female boss yesterday sent an email only to the women in our small office about redecorating, asking for ideas and wishes for the revamp. Email started 'ladies'. I slightly pointedly forwarded it to the male team member with a sort of jokey comment about gender stereotyping.

My previous seriously amazing boss once turned down a brief because the client was very annoying. Her start point by way of explanation to our chairman was 'if I have to get another email addresses to 'girls' I was going to crack and send back a very rude response. Think PR nightmare. Be glad we aren't in touch anymore'.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

I love being called a girl. But then I'm 53 . Much prefer it to the middle aged lady to who sits at the end of the corridor.

[ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest and I use it myself. I don't agree that it infanticise females and anyone that thinks it does needs to realise that it's only their opinion. I get a little tired of that being stated as fact.

[ZingWantsCake]

Chipping

I agree with you Girl!

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

I do realize that it is my opinion, but is is not only my opinion. Many women share it.

Also I am more than middle-aged. I do not wish to be young or to look young. I don't want to be called a word whose first meaning is female child.

[ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER]

Scone - several people holding the same opinion still does not make it fact. You can dislike being called girl, that's fine, what's not fine is people dictating how others should/must feel about it.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

I don't believe that I was dictating anything. Merely stating my views -my feminist views- as it happens, and we are in FWR.

[ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER]

Scone - why are you making this all about you?

YOUR feminist views. I'm entitled to my own feminist views. Yes - both of us are in FWR and we are both entitled to our own views.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

Back to the question of addressing groups, I do a lot of public speaking in my job, much of it in a feminist context. Like several others on this thread, I use "good morning, everyone." It works for all groups, regardless of gender.

I think Lottie's post of 16:04:55 makes some good points, especially the last two paragraphs.

[ColderThanAWitchsTitty]

It's not really an opinion as such to say that someone calling an adult a child is infantilizing them though is it? That is basically the definition of a fact.


If I call you Moggie, I'm technically, I don't know the word, Cat-izing you right?