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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A college bans face coverings womens rights vs security vs multiculturalism?

119 replies

msrisotto · 10/09/2013 19:09

This old chestnut but I'm posting as I can see two sides to this and am interested in other people's thoughts.
Here's a (non DM) link www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/09/anger-as-birmingham-college-bans-face-coverings-for-security-reasons

I guess i felt that if Muslim women wanted to wear it then of course they should, i wouldn't appreciate being told what i should and shouldn't wear but then when I read stuff like this: The illusion of choice I get even more confused.

My opinions so far:

  1. We should stop judging women on what they wear
  2. A security risk is a security risk so maybe this measure was justified
  3. Does the hijab represent the control of society over the freedom of women that has taken deep roots in their psyche, which has altered their perception to accept it as their identity. By calling hijab their identity, women reduce their worth to a piece of cloth, bringing entire focus on their bodies. This is no different from using a woman’s naked body to sell products. The blatant sexualisation of body in both cases perceives women nothing more than source of temptation, pleasure and sin. ( c+p from the second link).
  4. Forgive my ignorance but is the face covering a religious or cultural issue? I don't believe in sanctioning discrimination under religious rules.


I do not wish for this to become any kind of racist, bun fighting, non sensible discussion. Looking forward to your thoughts.
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GoshAnneGorilla · 15/09/2013 18:25

A more in depth article is here: //www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birmingham-metropolitan-college-drops-controversial-5921560

I am pleased at the decision, not least because niqab bans nearly always lead to restrictions on other forms of religious dress, they start by banning niqab and then hijabs, turbans and skull caps bans quickly follow.

I can think of many types of attire I dislike - ridiculously high heels being a prime example, but I don't seek to ban them.

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Hullygully · 17/09/2013 13:41

what starball said

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GoshAnneGorilla · 19/09/2013 22:12

Hully - starball's comment is bigotry wrapped in faux concern for a group of women she can't be bothered to actually speak to. The women mentioned in the OP attend college - hardly isolated from society. I find attitudes like starball's more dehumanising then any niqab, for they obviously feel

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GoshAnneGorilla · 19/09/2013 22:20

Pressed post too soon.

The likes of starball obviously feel like niqab wearing women don't even deserve to be consulted, yet this is considered a positive attitude? I don't think so.

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msrisotto · 20/09/2013 09:12

"I'm an atheist, I have only limited patience with religion being used as a cover for cultural sexism.

To my mind face coverings are oppressive and the ultimate in victim blaming. Women are so dangerous to their twisted view of the world lets make women invisible.

It's incredibly hard to interact with a veiled woman. That's what the misogynists want. They can't quite lock all women behind closed doors, although they try. So they make it impossible for them to interact and make friends in most casual settings."

The comment was quite far up so i've c+p'd it above for reference.

GoshAnneGorilla - I don't see Starball's comment as bigotry. How can you argue with the point that face covering is victim blaming? Please inform me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that the face covering is to prevent men from looking inappropriately at women. How is this women's responsibility? Why don't men have to take the same precautions? I think all religions are misogynist by the way and i'm not campaigning to ban anything but am interested in challenging dogma.

Also, the fact is that to me, I feel that face coverings make someone unapproachable in everyday life to be honest. I am not the only one, there is a strong consensus on this on this thread alone. So, from this perspective the face covering is isolating from society.

Of course I am interested to hear the perspective of Niqab wearing women (and from what I have heard, there is not a consensus among them, I would attribute those differences to religious and feminist viewpoints respectively) but does that change the way the Niqab is seen? No, for reasons already stated. It's like the common misconception of "choice" feminism, that as long as a woman has chosen to do something, that makes it a feminist action - not true. You have to consider the wider context. Just because some women choose to go to pole dancing exercise classes at my local gym, does not make this activity a feminist action. With the Niqab, IMO wearing it might be a personal choice for a woman but in it's context, I view it as deeply unfeminist.

It isn't religious bigotry - no one here has a problem with head scarves or other religious attire. However there is this one cultural taboo in this country regarding covering your face and therefore hiding who you are. That is how it is seen. Why should you care? You don't have to, but it perhaps explains why people don't like it.

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ubik · 20/09/2013 09:14

I think the niquab is isolating. My neighbours are all veiled. There are five women, one of whom I speak quite alot as we go in and out of our building. Or maybe I speak to a different person every time. I'm not sure because I cannot see their faces. It's the same at our school.

I really don't agree with it. I am not a bigot.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 20/09/2013 12:06

Mrs Risotto. You are using some very poor arguments here. Lets go through them one by one.

Starball's comment is merely her own opinion as to why women wear niqab. This opinion should not override why the women themselves wear niqab. She then chooses to make a whole slew of assumptions as to how niqab wearing affects these women's lives.

Aside from the complete arrogance of thinking you know more about someone's choices then they do, this line of argument reminds me very much as to when people talk about other clothing choices a woman makes.

So you find the niqab deeply unfeminist fair enough, I find high heels unfeminist but nobody would ever talk about banning them, because high heels are seen as a norm for British white women.

Nice Tabrad already used the "cultural norms" argument upthread. I pointed out to her how many other cultural norms had changed, but apparently niqab is the wrong sort of cultural norm, with the further implication that niqab wearers aren't progressive people so shouldn't benefit from progressive attitudes.

Do you honestly feel comfortable with these sorts of arguments? Or that niqab wearers should be held to a higher standard then all the other women who make choices you don't deem as feminist, because they are "foreign and other"?

Also this isn't just talk. Every single time the niqab comes up as a subject of national debate, it's with the viewpoint that it should be banned.

This is despite veil bans only leading to increased attacks and abuse upon Muslim women, as well as the foolishness of saying "wearing niqab oppresses you, so if you wear it, you will be arrested, detained and fined".

It will be a sad fact that during this slow news week/period of debate of debate about niqab, the numbers of niqab wearers being verbally or physically abused in the street will have increased.

I do know of several women in the UK who stopped wearing niqab because it was too dangerous as men - nearly always men, would spit at them, shout at them and attack them. Ever wonder what it is about these woman just going about their own business that these men feel entitled to express such violent anger towards them?

Which brings me to the fact is only a tiny minority of women wear niqab, so why is there so much outrage about it in the media? Do you never wonder about that? Why far more distressing issues of VAWG that are culturally linked, are not getting the same levels of media outrage? Why is a niqab wearing woman seen as such a threat to society?

I do think niqab wearers get slotted into the media niche of How Woman Should Not Be and are thus demonised and pilloried by a male dominated press whenever possible (just as other types of women classed as transgressive are) - they are portrayed as deviant women who need to be corrected by society. I feel that this is an area of analysis that many feminists overlook.

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ubik · 20/09/2013 12:35

I do think niqab wearers get slotted into the media niche of How Woman Should Not Be and are thus demonised and pilloried by a male dominated press whenever possible (just as other types of women classed as transgressive are) - they are portrayed as deviant women who need to be corrected by society. I feel that this is an area of analysis that many feminists overlook

But context is all. If these women were adopting the niquab in a context of protest and transgression against cultural norms then yes you could probably see it as similar to bra burning by radical feminists of the 1970's.

But what I see is women covering their faces as part of a deeply conservative and patriarchal culture where men are allowed a good deal more freedom than women - they are allowed to walk about bare-faced for a start.

I see bright and vivacious women - my neighbours are all university students - who are unable to experience the sort of freedom which may lead to them challenging these patriarchal values which really are simply set up as a means of controlling women.

I really think that if young muslim women are adopting the veil as a means of protest against a Western patriarchal system...well they are kidding themselves.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 20/09/2013 12:50

Ubik- these are all assumptions you have placed onto these women, women who you have deemed a homogenous mass.

Last night on Facebook, I read a big discussion between many Muslim women, some who wore/ had worn the niqab, others who hadn't. It was so interesting and there was far more to the decisions made then your comment assumes.

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msrisotto · 20/09/2013 12:53

Isn't Starball's "opinion" based on fact? The religious reasoning for covering up is often quoted from the Quran. I'm not here to defend starball but in reality, she didn't say very much at all, let alone making assumptions about why women wear the Niqab, her comments were about the religious reasoning underpinning it.

My comments were again, not assuming the reasons why women wear the Niqab but the effect it has on their interaction within society and the kind of messages received by others.

I made the point that we're absolutely not talking about banning clothing. However, we do talk about (for example) the clothes female celebs and impressionable young girls wear, why they wear them and the unfeminist impact this has. We talk about it under the banner of sexual objectification which applies here as well.

I'm thinking about the cultural norm arguments you mentioned. You are right that cultural norms evolve and change here in the UK, we're one of the most tolerant countries around but there is a lot of opposition to this one for good reasons (misogyny and cultural taboo of hiding your face) so why should it change? It sounds like you're talking choice feminism again, can you address the wider misogyny aspect since we're in the feminism section.

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ubik · 20/09/2013 13:31

So if veiling the face is freely adopted by women as a response and protest against these dreadful Western values - what does success look like? Is it that all women eventually cover their faces? what on earth is the point of it as a protest?

I can understand that veiling the face is part of a religious tradition - but surely if someone is doing it as part of a religious tradition then surely they also have to accept that they are playing an active role in upholding certain patriarchal values - in countries where veiling is the norm, other restrictions on womens freedoms are also the norm.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 20/09/2013 13:44

Mrs Risotto - this discussion does not exist in a vacuum. As I pointed out the "niqab debate" has real life consequences for niqab wearers that discussions about sexualised clothing don't, particularly given the racialised edge niqab discussions frequently have.

In your O.P you referred to "this old chestnut", you seem quite happy to endlessly posit about niqab, without ever making any effort to engage with niqab wearing women.

You seem to be missing this in favour of repeating "this sounds like choice feminism" ad nauseum.

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grimbletart · 20/09/2013 13:48

The Daily Fail (yes I know) had a story today about a Sudanese woman who is refusing to wear the veil and faces a possible whipping because she is breaking the law. So, there a woman asserts her right to be free not to wear something while in the UK others assert their right to wear the same thing. Funny old world.

There has to be something intrinsically wrong with an item of clothing that can bring such opprobrium, whether you wear it or whether you don't. Giving a piece of cloth that power is absurd.

A very articulate 14 year old on The World at One yesterday defended her 'free' choice largely on the grounds that it gave her anonymity and allowed her to be judged for what she did rather than how she looked.
We should be teaching our teenage girls to be confident so that they don't give a damn about what others think of them or how they judge them. She saw her choice as a positive one: I still think it was a negative one i.e. taken to avoid the actions and opinions of others.

I also wonder if the choice is made by some girls at the age when they seem to 'catch' religion. I am an elderly atheist now but when I was about 13 I suddenly developed a thing about getting confirmed and going to church every Sunday. It lasted a couple of years then I grew out of it. I wonder if something similar is going on with some Muslim girls who adopt the veil even though their religion does not require it and their mothers don't wear it. Perhaps they are less likely to grow out of it because their religion is not so laid-back as the average Church of England upbringing! Also, could it be a teenage rebellion thing by some? Being opposite to Mum is attractive to many teenagers whether Muslim or not.

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Lovecat · 20/09/2013 13:52

Why don't men have to do it? I think that's one question that has never satisfactorily been answered. Do women have more self-control? Are men considered such animals that it's not worth even trying to get them to behave decently?

If women choose to cover their faces, that's their decision, and whether for social, religious or cultural reasons, I don't think they need to be 'told' how they should dress. By anyone, including the men, women (because in close communities of any kind women police each others' dress just as much as men do) and religious officials of their community.

I live in a part of London where the niqab has become widespread since 9/11, which leads me to suspect (none of my immediate neighbours are muslim, most of my muslim friends only cover their hair if that, and regard niqabis as a bit odd/extreme so I can't ask anyone their actual reasons) that they are perhaps showing solidarity/making a visible display of their muslim identity/showing that they are 'a bit more muslim than thou' (that last according to a friend of mine who covers). So a statement, or perhaps a rediscovering of faith?

Converts of any faith always seem to go OTT (I remember as a child a lady who converted to Catholicism who always attended mass in a full lace mantilla and practically knocked the altar boys out of the way in her haste to be first to communion, she was regarded with much rolling of the eyes by those born into the church).

However, I fail to see why modesty to the extent of covering your face is something that only women should do. If men were to do it as well I would have far more sympathy (still wouldn't get it, but at least I could see it as being slightly more rational). I think talking of Sikhs in turbans is a strawman - female Sikhs also wear the turban if they so wish (I used to work with a woman who did so and it was fascinating talking to her about her faith) and they don't cover their faces.

I'm honestly interested to know - are women meant to have more self-control over their sexual urges, so they can resist the Diet Coke break man and his chums? Because that's pretty insulting to men, to say that they have to have women hidden away from them lest they be overcome. I've worked with plenty of muslim men and they seem have have managed to restrain themselves when surrounded by women in Western dress.

A woman in a niqab is actually making herself more noticeable against the vast majority of uncovered people in the UK, surely that flies in the face of modesty?

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grimbletart · 20/09/2013 16:10

A woman in a niqab is actually making herself more noticeable against the vast majority of uncovered people in the UK, surely that flies in the face of modesty?

Precisely.

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msrisotto · 20/09/2013 16:41

Mrs Risotto - this discussion does not exist in a vacuum. As I pointed out the "niqab debate" has real life consequences for niqab wearers that discussions about sexualised clothing don't, particularly given the racialised edge niqab discussions frequently have.

In your O.P you referred to "this old chestnut", you seem quite happy to endlessly posit about niqab, without ever making any effort to engage with niqab wearing women.

You seem to be missing this in favour of repeating "this sounds like choice feminism" ad nauseum.

It's Ms by the way Wink.
You have no idea of my efforts to engage with niqab wearing women to be fair and as I have said before, muslim women's views differ on this subject.
All feminist discussions have real life consequences, that is where the issues are borne from in the first place.
We are getting nowhere GoshAnne. I thought I had acknowledged that some women choose to wear it but was trying to widen the discussion out to the wider context with a feminist perspective.

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Freestyler · 20/09/2013 16:47

this is a great article by strident feminist, julie bindel, yes its the daily mail but great words never the less

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2424073/Why-fellow-feminists-shamefully-silent-tyranny-veil-asks-JULIE-BINDEL.html

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GoshAnneGorilla · 20/09/2013 18:02

MsRisotto - where exactly do you want this conversation to go? I have no problem with women wearing niqab. You do.


When the media has deigned to speak to any niqab wearing women on this issue, they've said they want to wear it and wish to be left alone*, quite a few women on here seem to think they know better.

There is a problem with using "choice feminism" to dismiss any choice a woman makes you don't approve of. Namely, who gets to decide whether a choice is feminist or not.

All that seems to happen is that endless things that women do are deemed not sufficiently feminist until it seems that only a small elite of women can truly be feminists.

This is of course, against the purpose of feminism which is meant to be for all women and also ignores that people may make similar choices but the reasons and contexts of those choices differ hugely.

*The carping remarks upthread about niqab wearers drawing attention to themselves, veers rather close to victim blaming. Julie Bindel has often written of the negative attention her style of dress attracts, I doubt anyone on here would shrug it off, saying she chooses to draw attention to herself.

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msrisotto · 20/09/2013 18:16

We debate and discuss on here, that's what we do. It really isn't in the spirit of the boards to say - that's their decision, let's leave it at that and not discuss it any more - we talk about the things which lead up to that decision, why that decision is made and the effect it has. Choice feminism shuts down any intellectual discussion which is why it is criticised.

There is no feminist elite either, how ridiculous! However, it is hard to be feminist if you don't critique sexism, patriarchy and status quo. We have said before that we don't/can't be feminist in every moment of life but we can be critical at least.

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FloraFox · 20/09/2013 19:58

Gosh it's not a question of dismissing any choice a woman makes that you don't approve of. It's a question of analysing choices and factors that influence choices (particularly sexism) through the lens of feminist critical thought.

There is more than one school of feminist thought. Certainly some people who would call themselves feminists believe that any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice and the purpose of feminism is to provide women with the ability to make any choice (which always makes me think of this: www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/ )

What about feminists who do not believe this? Is it not allowed to discuss patriarchy and sexism on any other basis?

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happyuk · 20/09/2013 22:32

My (admittedly male) perspective on modern liberal thinking on women’s rights: it’s okay to wear the niqab because a woman’s right to choose what to wear is paramount. Except women who choose to go topless in newspapers and magazines because they are clearly being exploited. Women suppressed in the name of a patriarchal culture: good. Women who make very good money through smart use of their genetic good fortune: bad.

My view is that women should wear whatever the hell they like, within the limits of common decency. But there is no sacred right to cover your face at airport security, in examination rooms, or in court.

And that's whether you try it on with a balaclava, a niqab, a crash helmet, or a Guy Fawkes fright-mask. We need common sense. Blanket bans encroach on freedoms. But there is nothing Islamophobic in asking someone to show their face at a check-in desk. Neither is there anything in the Koran demanding the wearing of the niqab.

The niqab is a relatively recent development designed to keep women "in their place." In many Muslim countries free from fundamentalism many Muslims don’t even accept that it is a religious duty to cover their hair, let alone their face.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 20/09/2013 23:16

Happyuk - no niqab is not a recent development, various forms of face covering have existed throughout history and that includes Islamic societies.

MsRisotto - I am familiar with the FWR section and post here regularly, thanks, but there frequently comes a point any any discussion when you reach an impasse.

You want a feminist discussion but you're using an analysis I find extremely narrow, also having been on many, many of these debates on MN none of these arguments are new to me.

I'm posting on this thread because no other Muslim women are and I find the way we are spoken about, but so rarely to, to be dehumanising, sinister and dangerous.

Flora - I am well aware of there being more then one school of feminist thought. Does Islamic/Muslim feminism ring any bells for you?

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FloraFox · 21/09/2013 00:37

Gosh why don't you present the Islamic/Muslin feminist perspective on the niqab or any veil for that matter instead of just repeating "choice" and being insulting?

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GoshAnneGorilla · 21/09/2013 01:10

Flora - how am I being insulting?

The crux of this entire debate is about choice - the O.P was inspired by a ban e.g eliminating choice, this is all about choice.

I've written at length about the impact this "debate" has, what bans lead to (increased violence against visibly Muslim women) and have also raised the issue of exactly why is it that niqab seems to inspire such a violent male response.

Yet you accuse me of being repetitive.

I think as is often the case on these threads, people want to disparage Muslim women without any Muslim women getting in the way. Then they can congratulate themselves on their superior knowledge and how deluded these women are.

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FloraFox · 21/09/2013 02:01

^. This is insulting.

Perhaps they want to engage in a bit of feminist analysis that goes beyond "it's their choice".

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