Childbirth rights globally

[PeaceAndHope]

I've spoken about this earlier on mumsnet. I think that the rights of women while giving birth are an integral part of the feminist movement, and I know that a lot of you agree. Until even a few years back, these rights were thought to be limited to women being able to choose a home birth, a natural birth or a VBAC. I've always believed that it is equally a woman's right to choose an elective caesarian or an epidural, as long as it is an informed choice.

In the UK, I am seeing a more balanced debate about this now. Most of my feminist friends here agree that it is wrong to deny women the right to choose how they want to give birth, even if what they choose is artificial pain relief or a surgery. Her body and her choice.

Unfortunately, I haven't noticed a similar trend in other countries, particularly the USA. I have relatives there and so I visit the USA quite frequently and the attitude of the self-proclaimed "feminists" there really surprises me. A lot of them think that women should be denied epidurals and caesarians. They even think that women should be denied repeat caesarians and be forced to VBAC.
In fact, I was told by a friend that the American pregnancy forums will delete any post that speaks positively of an epidural and/or caesarian.

Americans IMO have always been more ignorant , but isn't this a bit extreme even for them?

I fully support a woman's right to have a hands-off, non-medical birth if she prefers that and I find it horrifying that women are being forced into caesarians or forceps without consent. But how will we solve this problem by denying other women their choices? The answer is to enforce an adult, sane woman's right to both refuse and request reasonable treatment while giving birth.

Some women want a medicalised birth and others want a natural birth. Why oh why can't we just leave all of them alone to make their own choices as adults?? And why does the American feminist movement align itself only to an all-natural birth? Doesn't that actually put pressure on women to do things in a certain way and maybe even set them up for disappointment if that does't happen?

For a movement with a motto like "her body and her choice" sometimes we sure like to tell women what to do with their bodies!

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

So you've moved from saying she has gone on record as saying electives shouldn't be allowed to she is dismissive of the choice. Wow, that's quite a re-interpretation of her views. She also isn't assuming women who want electives are 'too posh to push'.

You seem very fond of sweeping and dramatic statements, when the reality is rather more mundane. NW is pro-natural birth. Fine. We aren' the Borg.

You've been given links above to 'one' person pushing for elective/epidural rights haven't you?

Also, and I'll say it again, are UK feminists really the best people to ask about the very jurisdiction specific issue of the availability and funding of electives. Certainly in the UK things are moving in the right direction there -see the recent change in NICE guidelines.

[PeaceAndHope]

dreamingbohemian

Fine. It's difficult, but possible.

I don't see what you are gaining by nitpicking on largely irrelevant details.

If we are all feminists on this board, then the purpose isn't to poke holes in each other's arguments but to try an have a healthy discussion about why feminism doesn't take a more comprehensive approach to childbirth choices.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

Hang on, going back to your point about doulas.

But my question is, is it then fair for those doulas to call themselves feminists if they can't support all birthing choices without a bias?

Why not? Feminists can choose to personally support women who have decided to continue unplanned pregnancies in difficult circumstances. It doesn't mean that you don't recognise the rights of other women to terminate. Or feminists can choose to personally support women who wish to abort and not women who continue their pregnancies.

A decision about how you personally want to spend your time isn't saying that the other decision is wrong, just that it isn't your thing to work with it. As you say, lots of doulas do both.

Some do hypnotherapy births or focus on homeopathy. Just means that that is there thing.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

*their thing.

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

No, you said she is dismissive and I agreed with you. I still recall reading in that book that she was disappointed that elective caesarians are allowed. Many other prominent feminist websites have said the same (such as ourbodiesourselves and ICAN). If you are disappointed that something is allowed, doesn't that mean that you would be happier if it wasn't allowed? And doesn't that infringe on the rights of other women to choose differently?

Simply because we are in the Uk doesn't mean that we can't have more global discussions about feminist issues. Especially when what happens in the US impacts the rest of the world quite heavily.

[dreamingbohemian]

I'm not nitpicking. You're complaining that feminists aren't running a campaign pushing for elective sections. I'm explaining to you why, even if they were inclined to support such a thing, they wouldn't do it, because it would be politically infeasible.

You say you want to discuss why 'feminism' isn't taking a more comprehensive approach. Well, political infeasibility is a big part of that.

The kinds of feminists you're talking about are not apolitical creatures.

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

Did you read what I said? I said it's fine to focus your energies on one choice as long as you aren't dismissive of other ones.

[PeaceAndHope]

dreamingbohemian

Why do you think that a home birth and VBAC campaign is feasible but an elective c-section campaign is not?

[PeaceAndHope]

dreamingbohemian

I mean, there is a feminist campaign in the USA to get insurance to pay for home births and midwives.

[PeaceAndHope]

Due to the efforts of feminists in the USA, the ACOG has been forced to mandate that women cannot be denied VBACs.

I think that is excellent, but it also makes me wonder why they cannot have a similar guideline for epidurals and elective c-sections.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

No, I am sorry. You don't get to say NW has gone on record saying electives shouldn't be allowed, vaguely patronise me about getting the book from the library if I don't recall the book saying that, and then (when I've gone to the trouble of getting the book and finding the bits I can) claim it says something totally different. Maybe it does. But find it and quote it.

You have back pedalled massively on what you claim NW has said.

I can't quite believe I'm defending Woolf to this extent as she really has been quite off with the fairies recently as far as I'm concerned on a lot of issues. But I don't like people saying someone says something without being able to back that up, or not being direct about what writers actually say in their books.

Of course we can discuss worldwide issues. But you are talking about very jurisdiction specific nuances about birthing and you're making very broad brush assertions about what goes on in the US that UK people can't answer in the same way.

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

I have not backpedalled on anything NW has said and I cannot fathom why you are so defensive about an opinion which you claim doesn't match with your own anyway.

By saying that she is disappointed that elective caesarians are allowed (something she has stated on the page that you provided a link to), she is essentially saying that she would be happier if they wouldn't be allowed. Which is an indirect attack on the choices of women like myself.


By dismissing a choice simply because it is different from her own, she isn't helping the larger feminist cause and that is my grouse against her.

[PeaceAndHope]

Instead of obsessing over NW (who has never really been the most stellar example of feminism anyway), why don't we focus on the mainstream feminist websites like ourbodiesourselves and ICAN? I am concerned about their lack of support for elective caesarians and pain relief and I think that their zealous focus on natural birth sets many women up for disappointment.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

Where does it say, on that page, that she is disappointed? My quotes are from your earlier posts - you've toned down your representation of her views again and again as I've actually had the book in front of me.

I'm not defensive about her views. I am defensive about you misquoting and holding her out as a high profile feminist who has an anti-elective agenda backed up with wild generalisations about what her books say. Because I like people to quote their sources if they cite them, and do it accurately.

I know nothing about US sites on birth. But then I'm British. I know NICE guidelines say I should be agreed an elective (with some caveats). Also, since you massively misquoted NW, how do I know you aren't mis quoting those sites without trawling a lot of stuff not relevant to most UK women?

I was going to link to a past thread about birth rights on feminism. But I can see you were on it too. And we all agreed in maternal choice.

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

I have given links to all the sites I have quoted. You can visit them yourself and decide if I've misquoted them.

My intention was never to only discuss things relevant to UK women- that should have been obvious from the onset.

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

She may not have an outright anti-elective agenda (according to you) but you will at least agree that she has an obvious anti-caesarian agenda. That harms women like myself who have wanted to choose caesarians and were denied.

To get this thread back on track, my point was that there are no feminists fighting for the rights of women like myself who want to choose elective caesarians and epidurals and I find that disappointing.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

No, I don't agree. She has an anti-being-pushed-into-section agenda. It's different. And I don't think that harms other choices.

My point about your misquoting NW is that you have linked to massive sites that you say are anti-section. If you misquote one person again and again, how do I know you don't misquote others without spending hours trawling those massive sites? People need to be able to rely on what you say if they are going to join a discussion. You stated things as facts that you have provided no evidence for and seem to be directly contradicted by the quotes and summaries I gave.

I know you don't want to talk about UK relevance only. You want to talk about the US. My question is still why you think UK feminists will want to focus on US birth culture as to elective sections when our own culture is moving in a different direction from the one you quote there. Surely your call for more feminists campaigning for elective sections in the US would be better taken up by US feminists?

Why aren't there feminists campaigning for elective sections? Well, maybe feminist were involved in what NICE decided. Birthrights is campaigning on all aspects of human rights in childbirth. Feminists on here have agreed with those rights.

[TheDoctrineOfJetlag]

Are there any countries, globally, that don't have caveats around access to elective c sections?

[PeaceAndHope]

Amanda

I don't agree. I think she is anti-caesarain in general and I do think that indirectly that does harm other choices.

It is actually a well-known fact that ICAN and ourbodies are anti-caesarians. Just like you didn't take my word for NW, don't take my word for this either and see for yourself. You don't need to see the whole website, just a skim through the pages I linked to will be enough.

My question is still why you think UK feminists will want to focus on US birth culture as to elective sections when our own culture is moving in a different direction from the one you quote there.

I am not of the opinion that feminists should only care about their own country and their own little world. i prefer a more global perspective on things and I think that the rights of women everywhere concern me.

If you think this thread is irrelevant, then don't participate in it. But it's a bit odd to have an argument with an OP about why she started a thread and how silly it is.

[PeaceAndHope]

TheDoctrine

Yes. Italy, India, China, Greece and a few other countries (can't exactly recall which ones) seem to have liberal views (so far) on women choosing their own mode of delivery. There are no specific guidelines around a c-section and women are left to make these decisions with their healthcare providers.

Your question is very interesting in that it illustrates my point. Most countries have restricted access to electives and that is something that rarely gets taken up by the global feminist community.

That is really what I am concerned about and I don't understand why that is disturbing people so much.

[TheDoctrineOfJetlag]

I'm coming from the perspective that all countries will have some things they support within whatever healthcare system they have, and some they don't. So I'd expect every western country to provide antibiotics without "question" but not all to provide, say, anti-smoking drug treatment.

By definition, elective caesereans are, um, elective, so I'm not surprised if many countries restrict them, on cost grounds and/or medical outcome grounds.

[PeaceAndHope]

Then we shouldn't be concerned that countries are restricting abortions, birth control and tubal ligations (all elective) on cost and/or religious grounds either.

Why is one a cause of concern and not the other?

The point I am making is that if we believe in a woman's right to autonomy over her body and if we agree that it extends to childbirth, then how can we exclude epidurals and caesarians from that list of choices?

[PeaceAndHope]

And how can any feminist be Ok with the fact that cost-cutting might cause some woman to have a traumatic birth experience?

[TheDoctrineOfJetlag]

I never mentioned religion.

From a cost perspective, both birth control and abortions are cheaper than the medical treatment required around birth and the cost to society of "extra" children (in the UK, child benefit for example).

[TheDoctrineOfJetlag]

Additionally, in the UK a significant proportion of abortions are paid for personally. In the UK, birth control can be obtained for free but I'm sure other countries have an element of charge for this.