the ideal society / culture in which to be a mother?

[curryeater]

I follow a few Mormon Mommy blogs like this:
lovetaza.com/

I also woh full time and argue passionately that women need and deserve full material status in society with equivalent freedoms to men.

I am confused about the tension between two theoretical positions and would like to work out if there could ever be a practical - real life - synthesis of them, in a form that would be a society that is perfect for mothers.

Position a: motherhood is glorious and should be supported for what it is, rather than demanding that mothers do other things at the same time, like earn money, as if motherhood were some kind of "not really a job" type thing. It is best done by intelligent, supported, healthy, creative women who are honoured for what they do. And that means we don't have to ask them to do anything else. Society should channel its resources into them. Breastfeeding is exhausting, home made food and beautiful homes are very demanding of those who make them, and they are enormous gifts to children, families, and wider society. [downsides in practice, if not in theory: women who don't become mothers are scorned; women who want to do other things are not allowed to, or are only accorded second class status; women do not have independent access to money and are basically stuck with a man like a possession, no matter what, which is an abusers' charter]

Position b: women, including mothers, are full complete rounded human beings with the same faculties and rights as men. they can and should take full part in all of human life including varied, interesting, and financially rewarding work. Having children is just one of the things they might do and does not define them. [downsides in practice if not in theory: exhaustion, because mothering is actually a full time job even with help; down playing maternal achievements and lowering status of mothers relative to male indexes of external success; a sense of individual isolation, that if it is not working it is your fault, and it should all be possible; short cuts like formula and ready meals become necessities instead of options, because maternal resources are scarce]

I suppose I like blogs like Taza because I like that she makes mothering look glamorous and aspirational, as opposed to the use of "mumsy" in a fasion sense as being second class and ugly (which I loathe). But it is all firmly grounded within a conservative Mormon ethos in which the woman's place is in the home, and it makes my teeth itch.

So what would an ideal society for mothers look like? Because you can't have position a unless supported by society; which then becomes compulsion. but position b is so lonely and hard sometimes. And I worry that I am honestly not doing mothering as well as I could if I had nothing else to to.

Thoughts?

[peteypiranha]

Dh does all of your list but breastfeed, and I am not in the slightest impressed. Surely thats just normal behaviour? My dad was the same.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

cat Interesting post. Will think about it more. It does say, in Delusion of Gender, that however much of an effort you make, the child will see what is "natural" around. If the child sees that no other man (eg all his/her friends' fathers) does the washing up then however much the child's father washes up he/she will think that "proper" dads don't do the washing up. So yes, I see myself as living as I believe I should live, and hope for the best. It is a bit depressing, isn't it?

[peteypiranha]

Thats not true I dont think cat if your dad does it then your dh will do it, regardless of whatever anyone else does. Well it is in my case I think most people marry men with charcateristics similar to their dads, be that good or bad.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

cat Following from last post, so society has a very significance influence on a child growing up. Hence there are people who are completely puzzled by, eg, pink "girly" daughter, when they themselves are quite the opposite. However, I think it is our role to educate our children not to be complete arses - not the mother's job, but everyone's. That's how we change society, is it not?

And you are right, I think, about the research showing that women tend to do more in the house, whether they have high-flying jobs or not. At least it says so in Delusion of Gender.

And I see what you mean about the burden being ours to sort out the rubbish chucked all over the place by the patriarchy. What should we do?

[Dervel]

I'm a new Dad, and looking at bieng the sahp. Having a child is the most important thing I will ever do, and my son will have the best of me. I'm not posting this for brownie points, because to be frank my attitude should be baseline normal for all human beings. Problem is that this attitude is the default assumed for women, but not for us men. Until that changes things will continue as they are.

I actually get a little annoyed when friends react with surprise at my aspiration (male and female). I also get a bit cheesed off with the assumption that we men are somehow incapable, I mean Christ I know 100% some things will get on top of me, but any failure or mistake will be met in some circles with a knowing nod as some preconception is confirmed. No parent gets everything right.

I do believe we are as a society making a bit of a pigs ear of parenting atm. The focus of discussion are on the rights of men and women, the rights to work, to financial independence etc etc. The crucial question to me is the rights of children to decent parenting. I don't give a particular fig which parent makes sure that happens as long as somebody does. I don't like the basic assumption it should be the woman. I don't like the outmoded notion that the person who brings home the bread or bacon has some sort of primacy over the household, and greater standing in society.

To me the situation appears out of whack. At some point in human evolution we took what was supposed to be a complete human being. Split them in half, called one half feminine, and one half masculine, assigned one to men, and one to women. Then later we compounded the sin by denigrating and belittling the feminine and subjugating it to the masculine. We've progressed an inch by allowing women into the mascularchy if they play by the rules, and surprise surprise many excelled as they started being complete human beings, but I think many still feel a dissonance targeted at the half of them still being denigrated.

As for me I just want to be a good Father, the single most significant thing a man will ever be. I do believe a lot of the unfairness and nonsense in society if more men tried to be whole.

[curryeater]

thecatfromjapan's post of 1823 is very, very important.

I am quite despairing actually as we don't have the wherewithal or will to withdraw labour or revolt violently

[curryeater]

Dervel, when you say "my attitude should be baseline normal for all human beings" - but you say this is not the case for men - do your male friends explain to you why they are different and why this does not apply?

not cool, btw, to say that we're making a pigs ear of it, or to complain that "the focus of discussion are on the rights of men and women [...] to work, to financial independence...." You are conflating two things.

1 - women have a a duty and a right to protect their independence, well being and material survival

2 - they also happen to do a lot of work as parents. Discussing the best ways to parent are not the same as discussing whether women are allowed to be full autonomous human beings or not, and by sweeping that conversation aside in favour of this one I am sure you think you are being very chivalrous on behalf of the little babies but you are crashingly missing the point



Of course our awareness of the tension between the two (which is entirely a posteriori rather than a priori, by the way, but none the less apparently immovable) is exactly why we are fucked, so thanks for rubbing that in

[curryeater]

Do all those like PeteyPirhana who are all, like, "but men do all this" really sure that this is what most of the world is like? and think that I am tragically unlucky?

[stargirl1701]

I wasn't really aware that 'men' didn't pitch in until I joined MN. I've been really shocked with some threads. I guess I extrapolated from my experiences. You go with what you know.

[curryeater]

stargirl, do you think you are exceptional in this, or not?

[NotGoodNotBad]

I wasn't really aware that 'men' didn't pitch in until I joined MN.

Have you never been to family gatherings where the men sit around drinking beer and chatting while the women gather in the kitchen helping prepare the food/lay the table/wash up?

[scottishmummy]

God your post are depressing op,pigenhole women into mothering as if its heroic,saintly
Look sooner we escape the tyranny of mothering and associated sentimental tasks the better
Parenting is act of adult being a responsible parent lose the saintly mothers routine.its cliched

[NiceTabard]

Surely the aim is that all people and families are in a position where they can play to their strengths and allocate work - whether in the home / out of the home / child care - as fits best.

The two positions in your OP are ones I don't recognise.

What is the "beautiful home" stuff?
Why is it called "mothering" when actually it's parenting? In our household DH is much better at that stuff than me.
Conversely, I love going out to work and am better at earning money than him.

We are both not shit-hot on housework and stuff kind of gets done as a joint effort as and when it starts to get out of hand.

I don't think we are that unusual at all. Surely we need to all live as we feel comfortable without fear of being judged in matters such as how many loads of washing there are or the state of the toothbrush mug (I mean, seriously?) and dole out the work each according to ability and after that just so it gets done.

So DH is better at "mothering" and I'm better at Engineering. So what? We've got all the bases covered

[scottishmummy]

I not defined by being a mother,it's not the completeness or making of me
I do many things,that include being a parent.all these things shape me
This thread is a knit your own lentils wish list.id not want a year off work,and certainly not to bf

[stargirl1701]

Hi NotGood. I haven't been to family gatherings where that happened, no. I would find it odd if all the women disappeared into the kitchen. I do find family gatherings break into age groupings but not gender groupings.

My PILs are very traditional - but I assumed it was a farmer thing/age thing. My DH (now) can't get over how his Dad just sits and is waited on. My MIL can't believe DH can cook, clean, do laundry, change a nappy, etc. She'll often comment to others, 'DH made X - and it tasted good!' like it is a revelation

My eyes have been truly opened on MN - to redoubling the feminist cause and eliminating DV.

[stargirl1701]

Curry eater, I didn't used to think my experience was unusual but, increasingly, I am questioning my world view.

[scottishmummy]

My ideal culture/society wouldn't define me by mothering.
mothering is limiting me to those schmaltzy culturally created tasks
So if I pursue career,ovation,don't take long mat leave us that incompatible with mothering

[curryeater]

NiceTabard, "we've got all the bases covered" sounds perfect, so well done.
"beautiful home" - I never said that, did I? I was talking about a practical, well running, economically managed home. I can't bear all that bunting and "crafty" nonsense.

Scottishmummy, sorry you are depressed but actually I do think mothers are heroic. Not necessarily martyrs or saintly (I wish never martyrs) but yes I think mothers are heroic. I don't see that as depressing at all. i think it is brilliant. And I don't think only the lentil knitting ones are heroic. Far from it.

[MiniTheMinx]

Mothering is a verb, mother is a noun. So I guess you can be a mother Scottish but that doesn't have to infer that you are mothering.

[curryeater]

x-posted with scottish mummy - no, it is not incompatible with mothering to pursue a career at all, and in fact I woh full time in a very demanding job. But I am still a mother - and perversely, it is a part of my sense of myself as a mother that I present myself to my children in that way
I think, tbh, you are misunderstanding what I am getting at as something else, something a bit more magaziney and oppressive and in fact another version of consumerism -> capitalism. I'm not about that tousle-haired over exposed magazine shoot with macaroons, this is about something else

Interesting, stargirl, that you are questioning your world view. I didn't realise that, because you seemed to be telling me that I had got it wrong, in my sense of how things tend to work.

[NiceTabard]

Your original "theoretical" position:

"It is best done by intelligent, supported, healthy, creative women who are honoured for what they do. And that means we don't have to ask them to do anything else. Society should channel its resources into them. Breastfeeding is exhausting, home made food and beautiful homes are very demanding of those who make them, and they are enormous gifts to children, families, and wider society."

I get that this is a 50s / victorian vision but equally you wrote it from your own interpretation so I think there is something there. Mainly because you later wrote a long list of what was / wasn't considered acceptable in a house and included some bizarrely specific things, which kind of indicates that you do think that way.

Personally I couldn't give a monkeys at the state of someone's toothmug, and am a bit surprised that is a "thing".

My list of essentials includes things like:
No-one smells, nails cut, teeth brushed
Clean clothes
Homework done
Organisation like paying lunch money, correct lunch for school trips in hand etc under control
That sort of stuff.
State of pencils/ toothmug not even on the cards, frankly. If that is something you care about, then great, keep it under control. Many of the things on your list though I would consider "nice to have" rather than essential.

Maybe that's why I don't feel I have so much work to do.

I think you are making the mistake of thinking your standards are the norm, and then saying it is lots of work, and the men you know won't do it / don't get it. But TBH I think your standards are high and lots of women wouldn't do / get those things off their own bat either.

[MiniTheMinx]

The blog post is interesting. Apart from being nominally "matriarchal" what other characteristics do the three tribes share? Intrigued now, so shall have to do some reading. What I suspect is that none of these tribes have been touched by capitalism or state control & greed or share a preponderance for Kath Kidson interiors!

[scottishmummy]

Ahh,I see a lame attempt at word play to deflect from your posts op.
I said your posts are depressing ,in that they mythologise and sentimentalise mothering
This is limiting and of no benefit to define women so narrowly.what about women who aren't mothers?are they lesser in your schema

[scottishmummy]

Schmaltzy sentimentality has clouded your reasoning.mothers are not heroic
Like all activities,there is range of ability,variance.there is no global heroic mother
Applying your logic if woman not mother is she un- heroic?is that a lesser state than hero?

[thecatfromjapan]

I disagree with those suggesting what OP is saying is retrogressive, schmaltzy, etc.

I think it's actually a discussion that is absolutely imperative at this stage of capitalism. Just my opinion but I think we are balking at having this discussion and deferring it: from fear; from desire to avoid rupture (of self and female political subject); from difficulty.

I further suggest that we need to have it, or we are going to find that laws and social practices are imposed on us, and children, that really do not make us happy.

I find it absurd that we will talk a lot about women's (paid) work but we are terrified about having an adult discussion about the labour of parenting because of fear.

I say all that as a woman who has been a WOHM.

I think we pull back from a discussion of what is the real and necessary work of being a mother (and I've discussed elsewhere why I politically and strategically use that term) out of fear that we will hand political ammunition to those who do not wish us well - either seeking to return us to the home without choice; seeking to reduce our "selves" to the identity "mother", and so on. We stop the conversation short because we don't want to inflict pain on women who are working out of the home. We stop because we don't want to cause hurt to ourselves.

I don't think it's helpful. We end up with a conservative, right wing discourse, that is padded out with a dollop of liberalism: well, let's all just be nice, and accept one another's choices.

That works to a point. But it leaves us with no way of discussing why it is that women end up foreshortening their careers in order to put in the mothering hours that men by and large aren't doing.

And then implicitly getting told that they did that for "nothing" because the work they sacrificed paid, visible, work to do ... doesn't exist - conceptually.

And we end up in a situation where Gove can argue that the school day should be lengthened so that women and children can make the wheels of capitalism go faster.

There really should be a highly evolved political discourse - a gendered, feminist one, that takes account of the value of mothering - that can tell him to go fuck himself there.

And I say all that as a woman who really does not want to do full time mothering. I just don't. It's physically gruelling and psychically exhausting - if it's done well.

And it is is possible to do it badly. Various degrees of badly and well. I love Winnicott for giving me the phrase "good -enough mothering" but ... I think we need to be grown-up and acknowledge that it can be done along a continuum of bad to good, and different things have different outcomes and different values.

I don't think we should be childish about this. If you are employing a nanny, you will interview, and assess, and make a cost-benefit analysis as to the skills they offer.

Ooops have to go....