So who went on a

[Leithlurker]

Anti Bedroom Tax march and what one?

[FucktidiaBollockberry]

There's a good blog post here relevant to this thread

startmeoff.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/shit-we-dont-play-class-v-gender/

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Nah, I was just thinking about the words ... I'd basically agree with you TBH (sorry Is). Not because they're equivalent terms but because it's more trouble than it's worth to justify why.

But very interesting about tit-flashing and it being defiance when women aren't being objects for the male gaze. I agree with that.

[lemonmuffin]

Okaaaaay then.

Doesn't quite work, sorry.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Sabrina, my DSes too.

But their politics are true blue. As long as it's Thomas blue, not Tory blue.

[IsBella]

That is a very good point.

When "tit-flashing" came up, I did think of breast-feeding.

And that of course, is I suppose the nearest equivalent - it's where women may flash a bit of breast not to titillate men, but in order to feed their child.

In other words, to do something that isn't focused on men.

Which is automatically seen as a hostile act - hence the notion of militant breastfeeders.

The very act of doing something with your breasts which doesn't come even near showing your structural power, but is just about feeding a helpless baby, is perceived as the equivalent of a rape threat. (Which is what willy flashing is)

Ooh this thread has got interesting.

Against all the odds.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I like willy-waving. If I had a willy I'd wave it. I sometimes borrow Dh's for the privilege.

However, I agree that 'willy waving' is a faintly derogatory term for blokes thinking the fact they are blokes is the most important thing. Like what patriarchy is all about. Men waving their willies = sign of power. Women waving tits = page 3, women as objects for men.

I am not certain that there's a parallel between the two terms, somehow.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

[IsBella]

Sabrina, you're clearly not as big a fan as I am.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

My ds does a lot of willy waving though. I tell him to put it away

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Lemonmuffin, if female SWP members were sexually assaulting men, and the female leadership were sweeping it under the carpet, then maybe it would be ok.

[IsBella]

But no, you're right, I don't have to bring genitals into it.

I just enjoy doing so on occasion.

I'm a great fan of genitals.

[IsBella]

Willy-waving is a specific term - it means macho grandstanding. Lefty-boy Che Guevara wannabes are tiresomely prone to it, in between employing terrible sexual etiquette and telling women to get to the back of the queue when it comes to the fight for human rights.

Whereas minge-waving? Tit-flashing? What does that actually mean? It isn't a description of anything is it? Women don't do the equivalent of what lefty boys do - they don't tell their male comrades, that the class issue isn't relevant because the only thing that matters is women's equality. And then set up political parties where men are treated as if they're slightly less human than the women comrades. So that's why there isn't an equivalent insulting term.

Because as in so many cases of wotaboutthemenz, claiming an equivalence that doesn't exist, doesn't work.

[lemonmuffin]

'Lefty boy willy-wavers'

When you're debating with men why do you have to bring genitals into it?

Would it be ok for someone to say 'minge waving' or 'tit flashing' for eg?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Funny, and true.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

IsBella.

[IsBella]

PMSL



This is here purely for a wind up isn't it?

[IsBella]

Haha

Women: I know a woman who is more qualified than you lot to say where your energies and activism should be focused. She's more working class and more single-mother than you (she can tell via the interweb what class and marital status we are) and she's more of a real feminist than you lot, because she's my friend and will reassure me that my kind of feminism is better than your's.

Now get me a sandwich.

And knock up a few placards while you're about it, there's a demo I've organised with my mates for next week I want you to come and support. There'll be a couple of rape apologists on the podium, but remember that's not important, because working class feminists don't mind being raped, that's a middle class prudish hang-up.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Only on MN would you find someone with a MA claiming to know what 'working class' anything was about.

(She says, as a total hypocrite of a middle-class type who, obviously, can therefore never dare to object to abuse of women when leftie men speak up.)

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

I agree with the others Leith - I think most feminists do not want to stand with rape apologists in the SWP whatever the issue.

And unless there are two Leithlurkers on MN (which I'm pretty sure is impossible) I have been on threads where you were arguing pro-sex industry/for people's rights to buy sex.

[chibi]

working class feminism = being down with rape apologia and misogynists?

i don't bloody think so. i say that as a working class feminist.

lololololol at you invoking your friend's MA and other qualifications as though that makes her more feminist than anyone else.

[AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld]

And die a death it probably should. Personally, I'm pleased not to have attended a march where the following was reported:

the stewards decided to appoint themselves law enforcement positions and start physically trying to throw us off the demo. They effectively kettled us, and we were shoved together very tightly, it was the sort of behaviour you would expect from Strathclyde police, not other lefties. Male stewards started to grab young women and tried to forcefully shove us out of the crowd, they were going for some people repeatedly. We told them to stop touching us, and eventually they had to give up on trying to physically remove us like some kind of Keep Rape A Secret private security service. There was a clear gender divide in how they treated us ? anyone that they read as a woman was put in a situation of clear danger, with people screaming and touching them. Male activists involved report having ?keep your women in check? chat directed at them, but the worst of the grabbing and threats was reserved for female activists. Racist comments were directed at one activist for ?not even sounding Scottish?.

[Leithlurker]

Your shitting me right? I mean come on, single mother households being forced in to moving....................

I started a response but then a friend of mine came in, she was on the March in Edinburgh on Saturday, she did social policy at Edinburgh uni as a post grad and at masters level, worked for cab for 12 years. Has spent 30 odd years fighting and working for womens issues, you know what I showed her this thread and she advised me to "leave it, people like that have no idea what working class feminism is about." I wish I had recorder her saying that. So dear friends, thats it, I seriously doubted you could not see the implications for women and how this would be a feminist issue, but since you cannot and apparently never will I am leaving this thread to die it's own death

[AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld]

IsBella. Yup, I'll raise a to that.

[IsBella]

I didn't go on a march because I cooked roast lamb and drank red wine.

When I go on marches, it's with women who aren't rape apologists.

I'm disinclined to spend my time and energy with lefty boy willy-wavers who tell me that women's issues are a bourgeois deviation from more important issues (them and their willies and their right to put them into women who are asleep while controlling the means of production while female comrades make the tea).

Am sick of spending time with them, they can all fuck off.

The lamb was succulent, the wine excellent, the company non-rapist and entertaining.

Had a lovely Easter Sunday, thank you very much.