Can you be a feminist but be anti maternity leave etc

[BaresarkBunny]

Although I have children I often take a peek at the #childfree on Twitter.

One of the popular discussions at the moment is that maternity leave should be abolished as it is unfair to those without children and mothers should use holiday time.

One of the most prominent posters who believes this says on her bio that she is a feminist but is also anti breastfeeding in public and how mothers are a drain when working, as well as other anti-mother sentiments.

Can somebody with views like this count herself as a feminist?

[LRDtheFeministDude]

That's the point, isn't it?

Some people will always want to have children (men and women).

But it's ridiculous to look at women (or men) who have children and claim they 'made a choice' and should therefore suck up anything that results from it.

People who have children chose to put themselves in a position where they have to change nappies, wipe up infant drool and sick, and put up with hundreds of 'why, daddy?' questions. This seems fair.

People who have children don't choose to put themselves in a society that penalizes people for having children. They don't control society - they only have (some) control over themselves as individuals.

So, I think it's unfair when people say having children is a choice and use that to justify, say, women losing out on job promotions. After all, we don't go around saying to childless pensioners 'well, you chose not to have a child so no money for you!'. The whole reason that pensions were brought in was to save elderly people from living in poverty or having to go into the workhouse.

[LeBFG]

I agree with you in general of course LRD. But I know of a few women who have a multiple children in row, take the max maternity leave possible missing out on years of relevant experience and then expect the same job prospects as fellow childless colleagues. I do find this type of situation a bit much in the meritocracy in which we live and I wonder if it's this to which the feminists in the OP were objecting?

[LRDtheFeministDude]

My feeling is (and this is really unhelpful, I know) that if society were structed in a more woman-friendly way, probably those women wouldn't on the whole be doing the same thing.

I don't know, of course.

And I do think you'll always get some people who have unrealistic expectations or expect something for nothing, so they'll crop up no matter how good the system is.

If nothing else is at issue, obviously it isn't fair to expect someone with more, and more relevant experience not to get the job. But I can also see the mother with the multiple children's point of view, in that I wonder how much choice she's had really? The binary choice of having children or not having them seems pretty stark (and ultimately a reductio ad absurdam as we can't all do it). But there are hundreds of littler choices and pressures, aren't there? Like, do I take mat leave because DH earns more (and why does he?). Do I take it because I can breastfeed and he can't? Or because I think I am more patient and he thinks women make better mothers? Or did I get kinda pushed into it because there was no option for me to have PND at work?

(Not 'me', obviously, but someone ...).

[LeBFG]

It's always been a difficult one to call. More generous benefits you have the more people will abuse them...but the benefits are there for good reasons, so...

Interesting how different countries have come to different balances. I guess they are all thinking they're doing more-or-less the right thing for society as a whole. I wonder how things such as PND varies with mat leave options between countries? And I wonder how this effects women's choices? For instance, I know that birth rate is higher in France but mat leave is less generous than the the UK - I've never understood this (obviously other cultural things are at play too, but it just seems that the lower mat leave doesn't appear to present an obstacle to reproduction).

[Mu1berries]

I think fathers should have to take paternity leave so that it's no longer logical to discriminate against mothers. I agree that we can't deny our biology and women alone shouldn't take the burden of continuing the species.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I think this is why tweaking the system - though it's good - is never going to be enough. We need really seismic changes (which is what, say, the vote for women or criminalizing marital rape were, IMO).

But yes, I would love to know how PND varies by country. Someone told me in countries where there is a good support network for women, it's better. And I know Jennifer Worth writes that midwives used to recommend women stayed in bed after delivery, not because it's especially healthy (obviously it's not: we know now it can lead to thrombosis), but because by establishing 'bed rest' as the norm, they got women's families to accept that they needed to take on the heavy work for a few days.

I guess with France, perhaps one thing is that (IIRC) they have the shortest working week in the EU and I believe we have the longest.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Strongly agree mulberries. And I know several men who have as strong an urge for babies as I've seen in anyone - it's not a purely female thing!

[Xenia2012]

You can have a strong parental urge (I adore children and have a lot) and want to work a lot too. That is the message we need to get home that loads of men and women have large families and adore their full time work and lead happy lives particularly if they don't suffer sexism at home.

[LeBFG]

THere's huge, cheap provision for child care in France too unlike in the UK (so I'm told). French women aren't complaining about going back to work (they may have a higher rate of part-time employment too though, no idea).

Ha, just found this [http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/184/46/s10.full quote]:
Only in the USA, Austria and France was time away from the baby mentioned as a source of happiness following delivery. The study compared countries, including the UK. In the UK, a source of unhappiness was going to work (with the theme of more unhappiness, more chance of PND).

I like the idea of equal opportunity for mother or father to care for babies. I do think this will only suit very few couples because of what I've said earlier about what women want and also men just can't bf. But I think it's worth having as an option if only to better valorise men's role in child care and child rearing.

[LeBFG]

Sorry crap brackets quote

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Ooh, can I move to France?

Something that sounds daft but I really like - French women are automatically offered treatment for their vaginas/birth canals after labour, so they get fewer prolapses and so on. That always strikes me as very down to earth and humane.

That is fascinating about the stats re. being away from the baby. But then perhaps if you knew you'd soon be back with the baby, it is not so mcuh an issue?

I think I am biased because my brother is a very clingy father, whereas his wife - who is fucking amazing as a mother - is much more laid back about whether she needs to be there 24/7. But then, I do wonder if other men and women are like this too, really?

I would hope with the BF it'd become something, like using a tampon, that the work establishment could cope with. I remember hearing that when women were allowed into certain areas of work in the 80s, some men were horrified at the idea that there might be tampon bins in ladies' loos (or even, that there should be ladies loos!), and that women would be using them. But of course it is normal and just biology.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

(The link worked for me before but thanks!)

[confuddledDOTcom]

Why is it all about sexism at home? Don't you believe that someone can choose to be a SAHM and there be no sexism? You also don't seem to think that women can be happy and fulfilled as full time at home mothers, just because you wouldn't be, doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't. I am working on sidelines but I would not want a regular job, I love being there for my children, I love the excitement when they come home, I like when they empty their bags and talk to me about their day, I love watching my toddler gain confidence in her abilities. For me there's nothing more fulfilling.

The message that needs to be got across is that SAHM, WOHM, SAHD and WOHD are all valid choices that need to be supported.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I don't get it.

Who are you asking, confuddled? Honestly not saying that in a snipey way, i just don't follow and I'm hoping I didn't say anything that'd prompt that reply.

If it's not me I'll go back to muttering quietly to myself.

[BaresarkBunny]

LeBFG - what she is complaining about is that the concept of maternity is unfair to childfree people. She does not believe that people should benefit from having children and therefore childfree people should be offered paid leave which amounts to the same length as someone going on maternity.

[Xenia2012]

That's always been an interesting issue. Do we treat the man or women who has an 85 demented parent at home in the same way as the couple who choose to have 3 under 5s and work? Do we treat the person training for the Olympics or with her horse or 8 dogs to get home for in the same way or the person who just wants to sit with their feet up for half the week because they want to draw or look out of the window and work fewer hours?

Do we think having children per se is a social good (given they destroy the planet)? I will lose all my child benefit soon. That is the only thing the state ever gave me to say - well done, you are producing future tax payers and we salute you.

[Narked]

Having children is a choice. A choice that's essential for the future of society.

Countries with falling birth rates and aging populations are screwed economically speaking. The money we pay into the state during our working lives is funding today's pensioners. We need enough young people working when we reach retirement age to fund us. Private pension funds only do well when the economy does well, and that's also reliant on having suffficient labour.

Go look at Japan and, to a lesser extent, Germany, and see how concerned their governments are about the low birthrate.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I think you generalize that claim beyond recognition, xenia, while still securely assuming it's 'we' (society?) who do the 'treating', rather than understanding that social paradigms do change, and quite often too.

There is no inherent advantage to accepting that the current social paradigm is out of date and damaging to women. Sure, you might get a pat on the back from the patriarchy for supporting it - but so what? It is much better, IMO, to apply proper analysis to this and leave aside the knee-jerk 'I'm alright jack' reactions that come so easily: yes, it seems easy to assume that 'we' should be making allowances. But, why do you assume that 'we' should be in a positon to decide? Why should we take on the privileged world-view of the rich person (therefore usually white, usually male, usually Western, etc. etc.), as the norm?

It is rather snide to refer to 'the person who just wants to sit with their feet up'. Do you honestly believe that person comes into the same category as a mother with PND?

[LeBFG]

I'm not sure which she you're referring to BaresarkBunny.

I've often debated the idea of paid sabbaticals for childless people in lieu of maternity leave with my DH (who thinks extended paid mat leave is grossly unfair). Although I agree with the principle - it's a fair solution - there are some major difficulties. For a start, this could not be offered to women of child bearing age (they could change their minds later and thus take sabbaticals as well as mat leave). The second main difficulty I can see with this is it yet more non-work time a government is expected to pay for. With the economy and demographics the way they are, this is not really feasible. At least women on mat leave are producing the future generation as recompense for the work-break.

[Narked]

Japan

Japan

Germany

[Bonsoir]

"For instance, I know that birth rate is higher in France but mat leave is less generous than the the UK - I've never understood this."

It's just what you are used to...

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

But again LeBFG, that's back to my equality of input vs equality of outcome example. Should all workers be offered a government paid (albeit at a low level) sabbatical to make it fair? That's an equal input. But it wouldn't be an equal outcome because only women would have to use their sabbatical for reproduction, whereas men could use it for anything they wanted. (insert some men and some women where appropriate). And would everyone avail themselves of the time off during the career building years of 20-40, or would some people opt not to take it until older, more established, when 90% of pay for six weeks was higher, when they wouldn't be "looked down on" by management? Is that equality of outcome?

[HazleNutt]

Just maternity leave does not make much difference, if many people can't return to work after that, because of the cost and lack of availability of child care.

[BaresarkBunny]

LeBFG Sorry it's the person who I was referring to in my first post.

[confuddledDOTcom]

LRD, I should learn to quote more I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to this:

That is the message we need to get home that loads of men and women have large families and adore their full time work and lead happy lives particularly if they don't suffer sexism at home.