Ireland: Woman denied termination dies in hospital

[WidowWadman]

FFS - how is that defensible in any way shape or form? My thoughts go out to her family.

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

[kissyfur]

Absolute disgrace and definitely manslaughter IMO. Poor woman

[Lottapianos]

Sickening. How Ireland can be considered a modern country and a member of the EU with laws like this in place, I don't know. That poor woman and her poor husband.

'Ireland is so backwards in many respects'

Agree. So glad I don't live there anymore.

[wewereherefirst]

Barbaric and tragic, but wholly preventable. How anyone could argue that this course of action is right is beyond me.

[Eve]

'Ireland is so backwards in many respects' Agree. So glad I don't live there anymore.

Me to..

when I get asked that question, I describe the people of Ireland as having the

'do as I say , don't do as I do' attitude.

so many people happy to dictate how others should live their lives, but lots of double standards.

[Lottapianos]

'when I get asked that question, I describe the people of Ireland as having the 'do as I say , don't do as I do' attitude'

Yes to this. 'Do what you're told'. Having your own opinions, living your own life and being different are generally not tolerated.

[Theala]

'Ireland is so backwards in many respects' Agree. So glad I don't live there anymore. Me too

Me three. Except I'd quite like to be there now so I could try to organize a giant march for this poor woman and to agitate to get the law changed so this doesn't happen again.

It's a fucking disgrace of a country so it is*.

My best friend's baby was anencephalic. The doctors advised her that it would never survive outside the womb. In her grief and fear, she had to organise going to England herself for a termination or face another face months of carrying a child she knew would die. That should never have been allowed to happen.



*in this respect, I will conceede it has other good qualities.

[Theala]

^four, not face

[MurderOfGoths]

Theala That's horrible :(

[Lottapianos]

Theala - your poor friend. That is barbaric

[Theala]

Yes, it was really horrible and traumatic for her. It makes me angry every time I think of it.

[summerflower]

This is appalling, and I think it indicates how blurred the boundaries are on miscarriage and abortion. Reading mathanxieties link, it seems to be the case that if you are having a miscarriage, it has to proceed naturally, unless there is risk to your own life? I think that is barbaric and a different issue than choosing to end a pregnancy, iyswim, though I don't want to get into a debate about it on this thread. This case is a tragedy, which could have been avoided.

However, I also think there was medical negligence in this case, as the law seemed to have been interpreted as 'we can do nothing for as long as there is a foetal heartbeat' whereas what the Supreme Court decision in the link suggests is that they could have acted earlier, given the potential and then very real threat to the mother's life. In other words, the medical interpretation of the law was wrong; and I agree that this means the law needs to be clarified or re-thought.

[summerflower]

Apologies, I had not realised there was a second page of this thread. Theala, I hope my post did not come across as any way insensitive after yours. I was talking about the OP. I'm sorry.

[Theala]

don't worry about it, summer. I didn't think your post was insensitive.

[mayorquimby]

Don't know enough about medicine so could anyone assist with the following questions

1. Was the condition she died from the result of leaving the foetus in the womb or is it a risk/result if the procedure they carried out?
   
2. Would they have had to perform this same procedure if they'd been in a position to grant her request at the first time if asking?
   
3. Is there an inherent risk to a woman's life under these circumstances routinely?
   
4. In what way does the delay increase risk ROTC?
   

Thanks to anyone who can help

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

mayor - not a medic either, but as I understand it they didn't perform a procedure - that's the issue. She was miscarrying and developed septacemia (blood poisoning). I read that there was amniotic fluid leaking and she was vulnerable to infection, so it was a known risk, but not certain.

There is an inherent risk to pregnancy and miscarriage, yes.

I don't know what ROTC means, sorry!

But basically, if you're miscarrying, it is dangerous and you can develop infections. A lovely mate of mine who is strongly anti-abortion miscarried at 21 weeks and refused many times to have a medical termination because she was so hoping the baby would make it, and I know her hospital in the US were desperately worried about the risks to her health.

[dublindee]

I think the issue here is that the medical professions are treating this by the letter of the law re a foetus/baby's right to life. But this is not about abortion. Even if it was, due to high risk of septicaemia as she was fully dilated with amniotic fluid leaking they could have induced her earlier.it was never about absorption - the woman was having a miscarriage. At 17 weeks the pregnancy was not viable do surely the well wing oc the mum should have been their main concern???

I have nothing against Galway and I'm not a close-minded Dub either (Da was from the midlands although Ma born in Dublin she spent all her childhood in the South-East) but I do wonder if this would have happened in the Coombe/Rotunda/Holles St???

[grimbletart]

So, their cruel and indefensible laws have led to two deaths, not one.

Well done Ireland. Well done religion. Not.

[dublindee]

Apologies for the typos folks am on my iPhone!

[mayorquimby]

Sorry ROTC was an iPhone autocorrect when I meant to put etc.

The reason I ask the questions are just with regards suggesting criminal action on the part of the doctors etc.

Fwiw I'd hold off on blaming them initially (obviously more info could come out) because they may well have simply been following legal or medical procedure for Ireland.
In which case you'd be criminalising the specific doctors for having been randomly assigned a patient when they may have done exactly what every other doctor would have within the given system.
By all means the hse and the legislation should be attacked, but I think focussing on the individual doctors may be a way of sidetracking off the main issue.

[grimbletart]

That's what you risk happening when you allow religion to dictate your laws.

[Themumsnot]

Another awful reminder of how much Ireland hasn't really changed beneath the surface since I left in the 80s despite all the Celtic Tiger posturing.
That poor woman.

[KRITIQ]

ROTC is "Reserve Officer Training Corps" - the fast track of bright students to military officers with the military picking up part of the tab for university - in America. (That's for the curious - where the autocorrect would have come up.)

Absolutely ghastly case from top to bottom. I can only hope that this will light a rocket under the arses of Irish citizens and their Government to ensure there is clear guidance on cases like this. Even better, a review of what is an archaic law. I'm wondering if there is something in the European Human Rights legislation that would apply here - for challenging the acceptability of the law on abortion in Ireland.

I hope the husband can sue for an eye watering sum of compensation from the Irish government and the licenses of those medical practitioners involved in her case, who failed to act in the interests of her welfare, be revoked.

Ireland, Poland and a number of European countries have the head in the sand approach to abortion, basically exporting it to be "dealt with" by other countries that do permit safe and legal abortion. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm thinking there surely has to be some grounds here under European legislation or through the European courts. The regressive and restrictive laws in some countries disproportionately disadvantage women in economic and health terms. Anyone who knows about these things able to offer a view? Thanks.

[Themumsnot]

There is a protest at the Irish Embassy in London tonight if anyone is in the area.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

No, in Ireland doctors are allowed to perform an abortion if the woman's life is in danger.

There's an article in the Guardian (front page, you can't miss it), if you're interested. It's pretty similar to the one linked in the OP, TBH, but just gives a few more basic points.

I agree that the main focus of the thread (on the abortion issue, not the individuals) is probably more useful, though.

[TeaAndHugs]

Sick. Other people's religious beliefs should never take precedence over someone's life.

The really tragic thing is that abortion to save the mother's life is legal under Irish law, but doctors are scared to act because there are no guidelines about when they can intervene without risking prosecution.

Sounds like there are several protests happening, in Ireland and in London, to ask the Irish govt to sort out the unclear abortion law. Anyone going to one?