"I don't like being called a feminist. I'm a woman. That's it."

[AnnieLobeseder]

I read this opinion piece in the Huffington Post today.

To quote a small part of it: "If I'm honest, I don't take feminists seriously. Unfortunately I feel these protests don't do much for women. Certainly, they create a sense of solidarity among those who take part, but beneficial? I'm not so sure."

To some degree I agree with her - I've found solidarity in feminism, but I've also found outrage and impotence. Will my awakening change the world? Probably not, but it's made it more uncomfortable to live in the world, unchanged as it is.

But I don't see what difference changing the label of feminism will do, except to create a new name that far too many people don't identify with.

[summerflower]

that can take place at any level from the home to government<

also at an international level...

[summerflower]

Thanks, LordCopper, I have just ordered it!!

Monkeytrewsers, there is a quote I like in a book by Ingrid Whelehan, which goes along the lines of:

"All feminist positions are founded upon the belief that women suffer from systematic social injustices because of their sex, and therefore any feminism is, at the very minimum, committed to some form of reappraisal of the position of women in society"

So, I would suggest, drawing on that, that a feminist is someone who is committed to reappraising the position of women in society, granted this can take many forms - although I would also suggest that some kind of action to improve the position of women in society is also desirable, that can take place at any level from the home to government.

[Monkeytrewsers]

What does the word 'feminist' mean in a world of feminisms?

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Why So Slow? by Virginia Valian. I haven't read the book either, but first chapter is very interesting!

[summerflower]

LordCopper, I have been reading your links from your post last night at 8pm, really interesting, thank you.

What is the full reference for the second quote? The link gave me a pdf of a book chapter and I'm really interested in the whole book. I totally identify with some of the issues in the chapter and would like to read more.

[doyouwantfrieswiththat]

Fascinating and validating stuff LordCopper, thanks for the link. Perhaps it explains why I find watching woman comedians uncomfortable. I'm so disappointed when they aren't funny whereas I couldn't care less if a man wasn't funny.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

The gender schema thing is interesting. I haven't read it very carefully, but it articulates why certain things happen and why certain things make one uncomfortable. It's such a relief to know that one is not a nutter.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I wish we practiced witchcraft. It'd be something to chat about at RTN, and nice and colourful too.

I'm not quite up to the overthrowing capitalism/causing lesbiansim bit myself, though - give me time and a thick book of Dworkin's writings ...

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Yes.

I overthrow capitalism, cause lesbianism and kill children as well.

Apparently.

Oh and practice witchcraft.

[ChicMama25]

The author is about as much of a feminist as Louise Mensch is
ROFL

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oh, plus, women like fastidia print off lengthy feminist documents at work, thereby draining resources and productivity and prestige by an amount almost comparable to, say, Deepwater Horizon for BP ... naturally this accounts for why feminism sucks.

[ChicMama25]

I read this a while ago, def got the impression she is young and desperately trying to justify things to appease the patriarchy
FFS get a grip girl. You're letting us all down. I'm disappointed.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I need to look at that too, lord, thanks.

I don't think it's surprising about single childless women vs married men with children. There are two things (which I bet well all know). One is, many married men effectively have a live-in maid/PA in the form of their wife. The other is, single childless women are assumed to be pre-mothers, who might at any point mess up the employer's game by going off and getting pregnant and giving up work.

People (and I use people in namechange's sense here) only want to think it's babies that stop women being equal because it's much simpler than admitting it's misogyny.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Ooh that looks meaty lordcopper.

Will print it off at work...

[UptoapointLordCopper]

fastidia it's not just having babies that's the "problem". The only example I can think of at the moment is in a Royal Society of Edinburgh report about women in science. Paragraph 75 says single women with no children are a lot less likely to achieve tenure than married men with children. So it's not babies that stop women. No doubt there are more examples.

I found this interesting ....

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I don't think you are being cynical at all.

If young men aren't sexist - why do I see all these stories about rape and abuse on campus? I sincerely doubt it is the minority of mature students who drive in of an evening to do it, instead of staying home! Why are we hearing about people like Chris Brown and Ched Evans, who're hardly 'the older generation'?

It is nonsense.

[WilsonFrickett]

[FastidiaBlueberry]

[Bluestocking]

What Fastidia said. Complete with.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Oh and of course I don't mean all young men everywhere, every single one

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Oh wow I think you should have some sort of mumsnet 50th anniversary event grimble.

If all these young men are so non-sexist, how comes they're buying nuts and zoo and regularly watching porn in which women don't actually exist, only "sluts" do? How come a third of them declare that they would rape a woman if they could get away with it? how come they're so keen on rape jokes and how come a third of all secondary school girls get sexually assaulted at school? Who is assaulting them, the teachers? I don't think so, their male peers are, you know, those liberated non-sexists.

I don't buy the "young men aren't sexist" line. That's what they said about our generation. And they were right, right up to the time everyone started having babies - and then suddenly, women found that their career, time and lives simply weren't as valuable as that of the egalitarian man they'd got together with and they found themselves downsizing all three and doing all the domestic labour and childcare.

I'm not cynical, I genuinely wish it were true that young people are less trapped in their gender roles than older generations were, but I actually think young people are less progressive than my generation was (I was young in the eighties when it looked like we didn't need militancy anymore because it was all going in the right direction. And then came the backlash. And now young men boast about how shit in bed they are and wear t-shirts telling the world they're sexist pricks. Which is useful, but hardly encouraging).

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I didn't think it was derailing. I hope the OP doesn't mind.

But best of luck for it anyway (and a bungee jump would be awesome ).

[grimbletart]

Cheers - don't want to think about it yet. There's something quite scary about the thought......probably do summat different - what about a bungee jump to celebrate?

Don't mean to derail the thread. As you were everyone.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

(And congratulations on 46 years ... have you plans for your golden wedding?)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Well said grimble!