A feminist discriminating against women.....

[TheRealTillyMinto]

...oh yes... and the feminist is... me.

I run my own company in a male industry. we are small but growing and have really large, demanding clients. i am in my mid/late thirties. i want to have children. i will have to work as much as possible. thats ok as it is my choice to be an employer & women in my family have worked for generations so i grew up with a working mother, grandmothers, aunts etc.

but my company is not large enough to have me working as much as possible, and another woman on maternity leave. very few women apply for jobs in my industry, so this is only theortical, but for the time being i would not employ a women if i thought there was any chance of them needing mat leave at the same time as me.

it is a terrible thing to say but i dont have much time left so i am prioritising me & my life over the employment equality of other women.

generally speaking as an employer, i think ML is good for business as it creates change within an organisation.

your thoughts please.

[Faseeshus]

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread. I think this OP illustrates perfectly that women can be misogynists. So much for sisterhood.

[SardineQueen]

Some are fine and some are not. Same as the men

I have worked in v male environments and v female environments and they have been fine.

[TheRealTillyMinto]

i have never properly worked with a woman, on the same team/doing the same type of job.

properly means the only occasion i have worked with a woman (including student holiday jobs) was my manager when I was taking my employer to court for sexual discrimination & she was friends with the person I complained about. She used to call him from her desk. Next to mine. So it was not a normal working relationship. (& no one else in the firm spoke to me for 3 months.)

I am 38. I have worked continuously since leaving university aged 22.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how your own maternity leave and that of your theoretical employee are connected.

If your employee gets pregnant, you will be paid for her ML, and will be able to hire a replacement.

If you get pregnant, you may well get paid less MA, I don't know much about being self-emploted. But that's the case irrespective of your other employees.

So what if theoretical female employee is pregnant at the same time as you? She won't be 'stealing' your MA. It doesn't put you in any worse a position, as I see it.

Oh, and you are being short-sighted and discriminatory, which, as you appear to realise, is wrong wrong wrong.

[SardineQueen]

Also what forkful said. If you are great at making money, and you love working, then think about other types of set-up. Not all women even want a year off! Although you won't know how you feel until it happens IYSWIM.

[SardineQueen]

There are also various organisations that support women in business and women entrepreneurs and that sort of thing I think?

Those might be interesting for you as well. If you are thinking of starting a family then as a small business owner there are obviously real challenges there, and they might have advice etc.

[Blackduck]

See Milly I was serious about my suggestion!
Agree with so much of what has been suggested here - looking for more 'resonable' clients etc. And if you want someone to run a team I can do that! (blackduck polishes CV)

[SardineQueen]

Oh mine was for specific as well as non specific.

There are an awful lot of very experienced, highly skilled women out there who have fallen out of their industry due to children and are desperate to get back in.

[SardineQueen]

" I recommend you advertise on MN or gumtree for some part time (women?!) to assist you - you can get really really highly skilled women looking for part time roles at less than their real market rate. Consider this for all the bits you are not specific for - eg bookkeeping/marketing/admin/marketing."

If you are in london women like us are an agency who specialise in these types of hires.

There is also capability jane which is for higher level professional types.

If you hire someone who is looking for part-time work and already has their family then you are unlikely to encounter more mat leave, if you do they are more likely to come back into the same role as they are already part time, you are paying less out so there's less risk for you generally, they are very likely to be loyal, and they may well be cheap. In a sector like yours (male dominated etc) you are likely to be able to find one of the few women out there who do it and have had a family and are now struggling to get back in IYSWIM.

[minipie]

That is true Alys. I guess the difference is that women's tendency to be more loyal is less obvious/less well known than their tendency to take ML.

[forkful]

SAHD

[forkful]

TheRealTillyMinto - coming to this late but perhaps with some different perspectives.

You've had the inevitable bashing about not wanting to employ women - I'd have piled in too if I'd have been on the thread earlier.

Here are some feminist perspectives:

• why don't people in general/society/business owners know exactly now statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance works (i.e. 109% reimbursement to employer) - big issue that it's not widely known about as it leads to discrimination about women - I blame a male dominated press and male dominated businesses
  

• access to subsidised quality affordable childcare is a big feminist issue, this would level the playing field for people getting back into work - if Government want women working they would provide this - there is really interesting stuff about how in the USA during second world war there were on site creches at factories etc and places which cooked communal meals/did mending all so women could work on the war effort - the war ended and so did the childcare
  

• support for the female entrepenur - we should certainly be interested as feminists IMO in their being special grants/tax breaks etc for women in your situation who have set up a business and want to take a break for children - there are tons of "special" tax breaks for other things - r&d, contaminated land etc - this could either make up for lack of income or give you £ to employ someone else
  

Specific to you:

• perhaps consider a life coach to discuss delegation etc
  

• try to get yourself some nicer clients - seriously there are many people who are reasonable about how they conduct their business and would be sympathetic to a bereavement etc
  

• I recommend you advertise on MN or gumtree for some part time (women?!) to assist you - you can get really really highly skilled women looking for part time roles at less than their real market rate. Consider this for all the bits you are not specific for - eg bookkeeping/marketing/admin/marketing.
  

• Look at an "exit strategy" for your business - with a corporate finance expert at an accountancy firm - this way you'd realise the fruits of your labour and could then start a new business or freelance in a small way in the future (obv no idea whether this would suit you or be feasible)
  

• Consider your DP becoming a SAHM
  

• Look into incorporating your business (see an accountant) this should minimise your tax and mean that if you have DC you can take advantage of childcare vouchers (means you pay an element of your childcare tax free)
  

• Realise than many women such as me went down to £110/week during maternity leave. If you go down to this amount you can then pay a replacement to do your work - I know it's not this simple - but that is the economic reality.

[TheRealTillyMinto]

AW - maybe it is not what has been said, more what i have learnt from it. my post was me trying to start the conversation you refer to. i dont communicate correctly for MN. i have had this before where i think i have said one thing & everyone else reads something else. i am the common factor so it is me. i will ask my friends in RL in explain this to me.

i will leave it a while then go for the thread you suggest!

[TrillianAstra]

Well done on your 6 point plan :)

[AlysWorld]

Tilly, I really don't think that would be a fair way to summarise what has been said to you on this thread at all. FWIW I also think that had you come to the board talking about the problems faced by women business owners needing ML, I for one would have been interested in discussing it as it does seem that there is some unfairness going on. But my linking it to discriminating against another woman, I really don't know what you expected feminists to say to that. The stuff about women business owners as the focus came out very late.

[suzikettles]

I still think you've got a rather rosy idea of other women's employment rights Tilly.

• There are plenty high-flying employed women who feel they have to get back to work as soon after birth as possible. They are often pressurised by their employers to feel that they are letting down the business if they don't do this.
  

• There are plenty women who find themselves out of work when they tell their employers they are pregnant. It's illegal, but annecdotally pregnancy is a very high risk status for employed women. They are often too browbeaten by workplace bullying to fight it.
  

• There are plenty of women who return to work after maternity leave and find themselves permanently marginalised in the eyes of their employer, no matter what they do to make sure that motherhood doesn't impinge on their work.
  

At least you've got a job in your chosen field. Maybe if you weren't self-employed you wouldn't have a job at all - after all, you're in possession of a womb which makes you a "risk".

Most women find that their career takes a big hit when they have children. If your business takes a backwards step (hopefully temporary) then you won't have been the first (employee or employer) to find this. Luckily, it's in your power to take steps to mitigate this.

[TheRealTillyMinto]

BIWI - you are not wrong! i have started to delegate. 4 yrs ago i had an extremely painful illness so i threw myself into work to cope. then as that got better my dad became profoundly paralysed & died so i threw myself into work to cope.

during these times i did not delegate. so i have only started to delegate for the last year. but i am new to it & have made mistakes which have delayed my business development plans.

I am very good at making money but only learning to manage the team etc.

The problem I have is I am 38 & time is something I don?t have. From a commercial perspective it is obviously only my (& DPs) problem. i was interested if feminism has a different angle: the concept of one woman?s right to reproduce v another woman's right to equal treatment during the employment process.

I think it would be fair to say the MN feminists say that the problem i have is my (& DPs) responsibility & no one else?s, because in deciding to run my own business, i gave up the rights that have been put in place to assist employed woman.

i gave up being employed but i did not stop being a woman. i hope one day the system does more to encourage women entrepreneurs.

[AlysWorld]

Minipie - reasons for discriminating against women are also generalisations. The two sets of generalisations counter one another, hence my reference to them.

[minipie]

I don't necessarily disagree with them Alys. But they are generalisations and there will be exceptions - so there are some loyal men out there too. If an employer can find a man who they think will be loyal, and will definitely not be wanting ML, then that man will be more desirable as an employee than a woman who they think will be loyal, but may well be wanting ML in future.

[BecauseImWorthIt]

Tilly - as someone who has run her own business for the last 13 years, I know where you're coming from.

However, just because it's difficult doesn't mean to say it's not possible.

When you say i am the Queen this is a real giveaway. There are four of you, therefore you should be delegating and training your staff to take the burden from you. You are not the queen! And if you continue to take this role, then it will be ever more difficult for you and your clients to work any differently.

Forget clients being interested in your personal life. Why should they be?

You need to develop a business structure that means you are dispensable. Only in that way can you ever hope to do anything like sell your business, should you need to.

But to consider not employing women because they might want to have a baby is a dreadful thing to even contemplate.

[AlysWorld]

What in MoreBeta's business reasons for hiring women did you disagree with minipie?

[minipie]

I don't quite understand why the OP here is getting such a hard time. Ok she could do with getting her facts straight. But even with the facts straight, it is true that ML remains a pain in the arse for small businesses. It is not easy to simply hire a temporary replacement, especially given the lack of certainty over how long the mother will be off work for, and it is certainly not paid for by taxpayers the government.

Realistically I don't think we can simply expect small businesses to ignore the fact that one employee may well cause them difficulty by taking ML and another will not.

IMO the way to solve the problem involves (1) making sure that men take their fair share of parental leave and (2) (much more difficult) reforming job structures so that they are more flexible and can accommodate part time, career breaks, etc.

[Blackduck]

Employ me Tilly. I am a woman, had my child, won't have any more.....(used to work in IT - but probably not same sector as you :) )

[TheRealTillyMinto]

SQ - the client raised the child topic with me..! but yes on the general professional distance. i let them get away with murder 'oh did we not tell you RTM we are opening an office in Shanghai on Monday' said the Thursday before....

no i am not in the 'creative' industries haha the thought. a small part of IT outsourcing. i find it creative ....

generally I love it. i am the Queen. my company is only 4 people but my two largest clients turnover over a combined £400m pa so we are doing well.

running your own business is great but commercial realities mean i do read most stuff on MN a think 'oh my god other women live on another planet than the one i live on'.

thank you for the comments. what i have learnt is:

1. i should not be resentful of my female clients over ML. they chose their job & i dont want their job.
   

1. if i want to work with women other than in a client/supplier relationship, i need to hire than & if they arent applying i need to look at how i change the offering to attract them.
   

1. i should learn about maternity law - i clearly know diddly.
   

1. i need to grow my business (knew that anyway but no harm reenforcing)
   

1. keep better lines with clients.
   

1. i need to crack open the Bank of Minto and learn the phrase 'yes i know a night nanny may seem a little excessive BUT IT WORKED FOR ME! '

[SardineQueen]

I think that maybe you need to get some professional distance between yourself and your clients? I understand how easy it can be for barriers to break down when you have been working with a client for a long time, but (bad) experience has taught me that keeping them at arms length is always the best policy. If you don't it invariably comes and bites you on the arse.

The two things you mention in your post - not being sympathetic when your father died & not wanting you to take time off for children - they are things that you would expect an employer to treat you well with but not necessarily a client IYSWIM. They are interested in getting out of you what they can. They don't care about your personal life. BUT actually it's none of their business and you should not be having those conversations with them IYSWIM.

What were the queries only you could answer - why? Can't you train up a second in command to handle these things?