Dominique Strauss Kahn: Doubts on maid's credibility

[Rosamund1980]

It's looking like DSK will get off, as doubt is placed on the maid. Why do these stories repeat themselves?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13986970

[MarySueFTW]

Greythorne, I said he's lied to. And even with the story I repeated, he's a liar who uses prostitutes then doesn't pay them - unless he really thought the maid wanted some? Which he might have, he's probably got a crazy ego or might not have looked a gift horse in the mouth.

But he lied and changed his story. Unfortunately it's her lies that will lose her credibility in court, as she has to be 'the perfect victim' to get a conviction. And sorry, but I've never got past thinking 'he'd have to be insane to rape her that way and think he could get away with it.' Especially orally? Hey, it's possible, it happens and maybe I should think he IS crazy. But to be blunt, if so, she should have bit his cock off.

These are my personal thoughts, not expert advice on the nature or psychology of rapists, the unfairness of the courts, facts about what happened, or advice on what anyone should or shouldn't do if raped.

[TinaLeena]

"whilst calling a rape victim a lying prostitute is apparently no big deal."

In the case of DSK, we cannot call her a victim or him a rapist.

We have had no trial...no jury has ruled on it, and no amount of saying otherwise is going to change the fact that he is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[MarySueFTW]

'he's lied too' it should be. Typo, I hate that mistake.

[CrapolaDeVille]

(because I said that rad fem thing and I feel awful about it, then I made it loads worse by attacking you.....I'm really sorry. Your constant battle here is never anything but vital.)

[TinaLeena]

Yes...and it's very easy to say the moon is made out of swiss cheese...but that certainly does not make it true.

[MarySueFTW]

"That wasn't addressed to you Crapola. I was responding to this:

"At the risk of inflaming anyone for suggesting a rape victim is in fact a lying prostitute... (ow! Hey that hurts, let me finish!)"

I'm fucking disgusted that something like that would even be said in the feminist section.

I guess the fact that I said I was fucking disgusted will be the thing that's viewed as totally evil here and yet more proof about how vicious radical feminists are, whilst calling a rape victim a lying prostitute is apparently no big deal."

Do you lack basic reading skills dittany? Or can you see that bit in the brackets? It's obviously intended to inform that though I am going to repeat this story, I expect to be attacked for repeating it, even if you read on and see I am in no way saying that is what happened. And surprise, you proved me right. Can you read the parts where I repeatedly state I have no idea what happened but here's a version of events that makes sense to me? Read them again repeatedly until they sink in.

Sorry to invade the feminsim section, but this is where the thread for the DKS story is, and I was passing on a version of events I'd heard. You don't have to twist everything into being an attack on feminism.

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

Tina - calling her a victim is not irresponsible. You are quite happy to call victims of rape who don't report to the police victims are you? So what changes when they do report to the police? We aren't in court here.

[MarySueFTW]

"I'm fucking disgusted that something like that would even be said in the feminist section.

I guess the fact that I said I was fucking disgusted will be the thing that's viewed as totally evil here and yet more proof about how vicious radical feminists are, whilst calling a rape victim a lying prostitute is apparently no big deal."

That's the bit where you twisted it into an attack on feminism, dittany.

[MarySueFTW]

No what you just said says that. What you said, that I quoted, is you turning my reporting of a version of events I read, that would indeed make the alleged victim a liar if true, into the prediction that your angry response would be used to prove how vicious radical feminists like yourself are. Which hasn't happened btw.

Anyway I'm off out of your feminist space now .. perhaps I misunderstood the nature of this thread - perhaps you could expand the title to 'only post if you agree he definitely did it.'

[scottishmummy]

no.its not case of "get off" unwise to speculate like that. regardless of subjective feelings or revulsion this case (like all cases) needs to be heard fairly.and both complaint and accused treated fairly

there has been considerable speculation on both sides.and i suspect no one on mn knows the exact events either

[eslteacher]

Have been interested to read this thread, as I am currently living in France and working as an English teacher, primarily doing conversation classes with adults. Therefore I've discussed the DSK case, and it's new developments, with a fair number of people, and have been really shocked at the number of people who firmly believe the whole thing was a set-up. A very prevalent opinion here is that the maid pre-planned the whole thing (working with or for others) in order to try to extract money from him and/or being paid directly by a political enemy. Which, OK the new evidence (which I can't actually find a reliable, non-speculative account of?) might make a plausible theory. But to me, even if that is true then I would still have thought more people would have a problem with a senior politician having spontaneous sex with a random hotel maid, given that he is married. But really, really no. There is such a big divide between public and private life here, and such a widespread acceptance of politicians having affairs and extra-marital sex (the last god knows how many French presidents have all been publically known to have had affairs) that to the majority it seems, as long as his private actions aren't criminal, he shouldn't be judged on them in terms of whether or not he'd be a good president.

I find it so hard to deal with - its not really my job to be getting into a political debate with my students, but I do anyway quite often over this. But the well-respected divide between public/private life here, and the widespread acceptance that a significant proportion of the population (and an even bigger proportion of politicians) has affairs and there's no point pretending otherwise is almost impossible to argue against.

On the one hand I do believe that a poltician's ability to run the country matters more than whatever he does in his private life. But on the other hand, this whole DSK case just stinks of sleaze, disrespect for women and masochism to me and I can't believe that anyone could want a man with so little self-control or respect for his wife to be a figurehead for the country. But the fact is that many here do.

The only (sort of?) bright spot for me is that I discussed this case in two classes today. The first was a very mumsy fifty-year old woman, a lovely, very mild-mannered person who I've talked to a lot and has always seemed very nice. I couldn't believe it when she started defending DSK and saying stuff like "its a sign of health for older men to have affairs" etc. Then I later taught a pair of 30 year old guys, who have always acted like rowdy teenagers, made a hell of a lot of sexist jokes, joked around asking for my number many a time etc etc. I held out no hope for these guys to not be DSK apologists, but in fact one of them gave an incredibly thoughtful and feminist response to the whole case, saying he thought it was a terrible system to base everything on the credibility of the woman's past instead of the evidence about the case at hand, and that he wouldn't blame her at all for lying in the situation she was in. It has really reminded me not to judge people's values and opinions so quickly.

[Vespaatemydog]

Agree

[aliceliddell]

riverboat - really interesting pov. This shows how the fictitious distinction of public and private is so key to maintaining existing power relations. Feminists always said 'the personal is political' - identifying conflict and power difference in the 'private' family/sexual realm and relating that to the 'public' where 'real' political issues happen. Socialism is also meant to have that analysis (epic fail) but a remarkable number of lefty boys seek the protection of 'private' 'personal' to behave like gits - T Sheridan, DSK, Polanski, Assange

[Greythorne]

I am also in France and despair at the stuff I hear here.

Yesterday, I good friend (male) said:
"it never made sense that he had raped her, he has tons of money, he could pay for sex anytime."

And at a dinner on Saturday, everyone agreed that "c'était un truc tarifé qui a foiré après l'acte" that is: "it was paid encounter [ie prostitution] which went wrong after the sex act".

I am struggling to stay calm.

[singersgirl]

Surely though it's not a misogynistic myth to say that no-one on this thread actually knows what happened - unless either DSK or the (probable) victim are posting here.

Just because we know that rapists often get away with it and that victims of rape aren't always believed doesn't mean, a priori, that nobody has ever or could ever make a false accusation of rape.

Of course the fact she lied about other things doesn't mean she lied about this. And of course the fact he lied about this doesn't mean that he's lied about anything else.

But we don't actually know, do we?

[aliceliddell]

The problem is the formality of 'justice' as an absract concept can't fit a situation with inbuilt inequality. His against her word can't work with beyond reasonable doubt. Mutually incompatible

[singersgirl]

I understand that, which is why it's so difficult.

[AwesomePan]

yes, but what makes this a bit more problematic is the position of some posters ( I have only recalled dittany to indicate this) that one needs to "believe the victim" at all times, rejects the words 'alleged victim', and insists the because we are posting in the FS this is the only way to think. Which is, to my mind untenable, though am aware of the proportions/stats and resistant attitudes that lead to a low conviction rate for those who are guilty.

[singersgirl]

I agree, Awesome. I don't think being a feminist means that you must reject all other viewpoints than that of the accuser. Just because there is inbuilt inequality in a situation doesn't mean that the 'weaker' party is necessarily in the right, though, like you, I'm aware of the statistics etc and the background attitudes.