Does anyone else find the idea of a 'dads only' toddler group irritating?

[DaisySteiner]

Have been visiting my parents and in an idle moment was leafing through a local newsletter-thingy when I noticed that their local church organises a 'Dads and Kids' group on a Saturday once a month. Apparently it's a chance for 'dads to get together and for mums to have a break' . There's a 'parents and toddlers' group during the week but no corresponding group for mums only.

Now, I can understand that it is difficult to get to know other parents if you work during the week, but what about mums? Presumably we're all at home doing the childcare? I'm also ticked off by the idea of this being an opportunity to 'give mum a break' while according to the literature they chill out, read the papers and eat bacon rolls

I'm struggling to articulate what irritates me so much about this, so I'm quite open to being told that I'm unreasonable and touchy (dh certainly thinks so!) It may be the church aspect that is riling me as I'm generally of the opinion that they are full of semi-repressed misogyny (apologies to any Christian feminists).

[poshsinglemum]

I don't have a problem with it at all.

[Lizum]

Wish we had a Dad's group near us as DH is a SAHD and I think he feels isolated sometimes. We don't live in a hippy area where it's a trendy thing to do, though.

There are a few soft play places that a re open at the weekend, so I take DS there for something for us to do as a fulltime working mum. I do miss the chance to meet up with the mums I met at postnatal though. Everyone, especially us, is so busy at weekends.

[BelfastRingingOutForXmasBloke]

Feminists are familiar with the disjunct between the way the world should be and the way it is.

Of course it SHOULD be unnecessary to have any distinction between different parents' groups.

But it is a fact that it's rare to have more than a couple of men at any toddler group. And it's a fact that some women view these men as inherently suspicious (I've seen this voiced explicitly on Mumsnet).

Blokes are not heroes for taking care of their own kids. But the world (and vocab) of childcare is definitely female-orientated. Shouldn't be, but it is. (Even in cutting-edge London, I was shocked to realise).

And because that orientation is based on statistics, it's not a problem to deal with. But it does mean that it is helpful if there are men-only groups.

I learned a hell of a lot about losing my self-consciousness about singing and playing by observing other dads doing so.

[nooka]

I agree that preferential treatment and the tag line is a little irritating, but then this sort of session is aimed at a hard to reach group, who might well not choose to come otherwise. They might well see their parenting role as purely supportive and they might respond well to a bit of mild bribery or more of a macho feel (bacon being very many of course, and it is a good breakfast after a night of drinking).

As a working mother I wouldn't ever have wanted to go to a mums and toddler group even with bacon as I found them really stressful and I valued my weekend with the children way to much to waste it in some hall full of strangers (I'm an introvert :)). I knew one dad who took his children to a gym class every Saturday morning as his dad's time and to give his partner the chance of a lie in. Seemed great to me (my dh was a SAHD when my two were toddlers and never wanted to meet up with anyone, which I worried about a bit).

I also think that it is really important for dads to spend time with other dads at least when the children are little because parenting is such a lifechanging thing and whilst women tend to keep links with antenatal groups etc men don't tend to get together in the same way and I think it would be incredibly helpful. Partly to share parenting stories, but probably more to talk about how their relationships have changed so that they can see that some things are common experiences and not about their own specific relationship.

[Ephiny]

I actually think it's a good idea, there are still barriers (perceived social disapproval etc) to men participating fully in childcare so anything that helps overcome that is a good thing IMO. Would be good if it wasn't necessary, but the same goes for things like women-only networking events in male-dominated business areas, in a perfect world we wouldn't need it, but as things stand it's nice to have.

Would have been a bit irritated by the 'giving mums a break' thing, though I guess that may actually be the case in many situations :) Just feel it reinforces the 'norm' of childcare being done by mums, which is exactly the opposite of what something like this is trying to achieve. But that's a minor point really.

[JustKeepSnowing]

Dh says - after telling him about this thread - that there are several Dads who go and it's almost a step up from a contact centre for them & their DC as they don't have anywhere else appropriate to take them. Which is both good & :(

Also he wanted me to say that girls obv go with their Dads too so not just 'male time' as i said earlier.

And i'm still happy with the 'give Mums a break' comment as that's exactly what it does for me :)

[Panzee]

Sounds like a better place to take the children if you're separated, and it's your weekend, than a depressing table at McDonald's.

[PrincessBoo]

To summarise:

Father's groups: fine and dandy

Father's groups with bacon sandwiches provided: very wrong and bad

The utopian ideal: a parent and toddler group on saturday with bacon sadnwiches provided (an alternatives for vegetarians and those who do not eat bacon on religious grounds).

I still haven't had a bacon sarnie yet either and this is my third post on this thread...

[Paradis]

My dh was a SAHD and he used to go to one of these midweek. They also welcome mums, but it is mainly dads. I certainly didn't find the existence of it 'irritating' - I was grateful. He made friends with others in similar situations, they were a supportive nice bunch of people. Being at home with small children can be isolating for anybody, nevermind those who are out of step with the 'norm'. He also used to go to M&T type groups, but I think if D&L hadn't existed he would never have made the leap to M&T.

They didn't have bacon afaik, but they did have proper coffee. Which they organised, not as if some uber-mummy swooped down to look after them...

[Bue]

I think it's a good idea (apart from Give Mum A break, obv!) but I think the real need is for weekday groups for SAHDs, as they're the ones who would most benefit from a bit of male companionship and adult chat. I know it can be tough to do the regular groups as they are so mother-dominated and men can be made to feel excluded. That's not fun for anyone.

[dessen]

If a mum went along would she be turned away? Think a group that includes parents, gp, other family, carers is a better idea. It is good to get dads together to chat about looking after their kids though.

[bucaneve]

I think in principle having dads' toddler groups is a great idea, because I think men are still looked at a bit oddly when they want to spend a lot of time with kids, be SAHPs etc.

The 'give mum a break' thing is a bit twattish tho.

Am in two minds about the bacon, one one hand I think anything that encourages men to come to these toddler groups is a good thing, on the other hand I think men aren't babies and should make do with squash and boring biscuits like everyone else!

[snowflake69]

Josierosie - All the dads who come to the group are very low income or in some way vulnerable. The vast majority of our parents are way below the national average in terms of income or are someway vulnerable as well. We are lucky that we are in an area that is extremely well used and is used by the most vulnerable in society.

I do know that not all Surestarts are used the same but that is why I dont begrudge it for our particular area.

[ISNT]

Funny isn't it, it's the norm for dads and male GPs to be doing stuff around here. I wonder why.

[ChippingIn]

Goblinchild - I'm sorry your DH was treat like that :( I haven't seen a bloke at a toddler group in years and my friends who are SAHD's wont go near them as they fear being treat like your DH :(

Years ago we had a Dad who brought his daughter sometimes, he was a Fireman on shifts so came when he could. He was BRILLIANT (not to mention drop dead gorgous!!) he really played with the kids, chatted to everyone really easily and built all kinds of things for us on his days off! Not that he had to do any of those things to be welcome - he was welcome when he first joined and sat drinking tea/eating biscuits with the rest of us - till he found his feet - then there was no stopping him!

[ChippingIn]

I think it's a brilliant idea. I think it's great for Dad's (male carers anyway) to have somewhere to go and chat with other Dads while the kids play - something that is encouraging a social atmosphere - with the children.

It would be good to have one for Mums' (females carers) only and then one for Parents/Carers.

The 'to give Mum a break' is a bit but it sounds like it's been orgnised by someone from a slightly older generation and not the end of the world.

I am vegetarian so the bacon isn't appealing , but the fact that it's being advertised as a 'social' thing and not the usual Toddler Group Helicoptering sounds great.

[CommanderDrool]

Many separated men live in accomodation unsuitable for young kids and this provides somewhere gor them to gave fun together.

[JosieRosie]

Goblin, actually I can believe that - have heard of some very unhelpful attitudes among staff in my centres. Disgraceful really, and downright sexist, hope it hasn't put him off for life.

Snowflake, I see your point but part of me feels they should just flipping well do it! As I'm sure you well know, SureStart is the most fantastic thing and it makes me and that such a fabulous free resource is not being used by all parents. We still have parents who live in the borough who have absolutely no idea what a Children's Centre is, let along where their nearest one is. The sad thing is, these are precisely the sort of parents who need our services!

[CommanderDrool]

Actually I think it's a positive thing as there are plenty if separated fathers around who may benefit from contact with others and froma positive time with young children.

[Goblinchild]

I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell you why, CommanderDrool.

[CommanderDrool]

I just feel rather about it.

Why should it bother me as a feminist?

[Georgimama]

Also, I will need to know if the bacon is streaky or back, and smoked or unsmoked. If it's streaky they can keep it. Cheap shit.

[Georgimama]

We don't know if the bacon rolls are paid for by the church, though. There might be a charge for refreshments, as there is at many such events. Or there might not. Perhaps the church takes the view that once a month bacon sarnies costs no more than weekly tea and biccies at the weekday group.

I still can't get worked up about it. However I also feel the need for a bacon sandwich.

[Goblinchild]

Dh wasn't made out to be a hero, he was made to feel very odd and pervy, especially when others were changing nappies on babies, talking about women's things and generally glaring at him with suspicion whenever he helped DD interact with another child.
No doubt they were operating on their natural maternal instinct.