Hollywood "worships at the altar of the 18- to 25-year-old male and his penis"

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

...according to Dame Helen Mirren link

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

Yes exactly notjust - or if they are the main character, they are isolated in a world entirely populated by men.

[notjustapotforsoup]

I think the value of the Bechdel test lies in the bigger picture. If only a small number of films pass the Bechdel test (and/or the vast majority pass the reverse Bechdel), then I think there is a problem with female representation on screen. It's not really about the individual film, but about the wider cultural implication - that women are almost always shown in a supporting role to men.

[walkinginaWUKTERwonderland]

x posts with Elf

[walkinginaWUKTERwonderland]

No, no, no MrM, the Bechdel test is not science, of course not! Don't be confused because it has the word Test in the title. We know it's just used to spur discussion. Very interesting discussions, too. I don't think anyone but you feels the failing the Bechdel Test 'implies' misogyny. It often does, but not always.

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

But that doesn't make it anti-women or misogynistic - it seems to me this 'test' is more to spur discussion than to scientifically test a film's attitude to women. Correct - some films that are actually quite feminist IMO don't pass it either. It's a tool to show something so entrenched in film culture that we no longer notice it.

There is an implication that failing the Bechdel test means the film is not good. Is there? Who holds that assumption?


I also disagree that it means the film is misogynistic. You're disagreeing with a straw wo/man. No-one has said that failing the Bechdel test = misogyny.

You are missing the point again about what the test does do.

[MrManager]

My favourite movie at the moment is Inception. It would fail the Bechdel test. But that doesn't make it anti-women or misogynistic - it seems to me this 'test' is more to spur discussion than to scientifically test a film's attitude to women.

There was recently some talk about The Social Network failing the Bechdel test, but there weren't any women involved in the making of Facebook. Why should they have made up characters, and then had them talk about something that doesn't advance the story?

There is an implication that failing the Bechdel test means the film is not good. I disagree. I also disagree that it means the film is misogynistic.

[southeastastra]

agree with her, can't remember the last film i saw at pictures. so many good films don't even make it to my local. (a single man for example)

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

Alright, well if you want to buy me a TV and a TV licence I am more than happy to watch all the weekend telly and make you a lovely list? How does that sound?

Or how about I say "There are many female gorgeous TV presenters in their 20s, there are no male ones that I can think of". Suit you? I can't name dozens of anything, really - cheeses, dog breeds, James Bond films - it's hyperbole dahling. But there are a lot, I've named some, don't be a moaning minnie and throw my benevolence back in my face.

Of course I can refute that point, about the president. Few films consist entirely of conversations on one subject alone, or where "the president" features in every line of dialogue. That would be both boring and ridiculous. There are what-I-call subplots for a start, and conversations establishing background. Films aren't the same as news articles.

Anyway, if all you can say about the Bechdel test is "it's not perfect" then it strikes me that you are wilfully gliding over it's main point, which is that there are vanishingly few female characters in the first place, even fewer who talk to each other. Why not have some fun this weekend and apply it to your favourite movies?

[MrManager]

Can't refute that point, EPAMM?

Where's my list? You were the one who asserted you could provide one.

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

Don't be a silly sausage MrManager. Now where's my list?

[MrManager]

If the film is about the president, and conversations featured in that film only really revolve around the president, then what is the problem? Should all films have to include a scene where two women talk about something irrelevant to the story?

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

So where is my list MrM? - I did warn you the female list wasn't going to be particularly up to date as I don't have a TV and only watch at friend's houses. Alexa Chung has just sprung to mind - replace Tess with her on the list. The others can't be much over 30/31, they have had most of their careers in their twenties.

How's the male list going? Got any on it at all?

Misogyny isn't a science, it's an art as so many notable fuckheads have proved over the centuries

Assume it's any conversation about any man. You have to ask why they are talking about a man all the time, even if it's in the context of work (e.g. "the president will be arriving at 3.30" - if the president is always a man, that tells you something too). But mostly, you don't have to think about it too much because it nearly always is in a romantic context, if there are two women at all, and if they ever get into the same scene to have a conversation.

[MrManager]

ElfPantsAtMidnightMass only two of those women are in their twenties. Tess Daly is in her 40s. So much for being able to list dozens.

The Bechdel test isn't particularly useful because it is so vague. How broadly do you define 'man'? Just in a romantic sense? Or literally any conversation about any male? It's not some perfect scientific test for determining whether a film is misogynistic.

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

I don't we need to worry about feeding our managerial friend, he is obviously finding it hard to participate in this discussion. Unless "The Bechdel test isn't perfect" counts as scathing wit/a step by step takedown of all other points made.

But you know, I like to think of this conversation as a collaboration, not an adversarial process. I'm sure MrM and others are learning and changing their views as we go along :)

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

E&M - thanks for the 'jack' explanation. very succinct.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

arnold swarz (can't spell it) - ugly!
jean claude van dam - ugly
steven segal - ugly

etc etc.

it's barely concealed homo erotica when the big hard men ripple their muscles with their shirts off. i don't know a single woman who finds men like this attractive. it's for the boys.

[earwicga]

(and please don't feed the MrManager - I forgot earlier)

[earwicga]

Really good article about women and girls in movies: Wanted: More Girls on Screen

'Of the 5,554 speaking characters [in kids films] studied, 71 percent were male and 29 percent were female. That?s a 2.42 to 1 ratio, which has not changed much in 20 years.

Not only were female leads in short supply, researchers found, but in crowd scenes and group scenes only 17 percent of characters were women. In addition, female characters were far more likely to be ?hypersexualized? ? 25 percent were wearing tight , provocative, revealing clothing, compared with four percent of males ? and physically attractive (14 percent versus. 3.6 percent). The female characters were younger than their male counterparts, and the sole goal of the females was usually to find romance. Not one of the animated female characters had a shape that was possible in real life.'

[MrManager]

The Bechdel test isn't perfect.

[msrisotto]

Ugly leading men may be in a minority but ugly leading women are non existant. also, the bechdel test shows how even 'chick flicks' that are supposedly aimed at women, aren't really for us at all, apart from to serve the interests of the patriarchy.

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

But, because I'm obliging, I'll reel off some young female TV presenters - given that I don't have a TV at the moment. Fearne Cotton, Tess Daly, Christine Bleakley, Alex Jones, Myleene Klass, erm... just checking the TV guide for tonight, Kate Walsh.

[ElfPantsAtMidnightMass]

I never said there weren't goodlooking leading men. Just that there are also ugly and old ones. Like life. Whereas women are hot hot hot and young young young.

And I'm not just talking about lead romantic roles. In the vast majority of films I see, all the characters are male, barring one or two for vagina purposes. Why not have the teacher or the doctor or the rocket mechanic or the best friend or the boss at work or anyone else whose knicker-content is not integral to the plot be a female character?

Have you heard of the Bechdel test?

And actually I think I started the TV presented conversation so it's your job to disprove my point, not my job to prove that there are lots of young female TV presenters. There just are. Find me 10, or even 5 attractive young male TV presenters, under 30 years old please.

[MrManager]

Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Leonardo DiCaprio? 'Ugly' leading men are the minority.

One dozen female presenters, in their twenties, outside of kids TV, please.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Yeah actually we do MrM.

Have you seen the female equivalent of <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.readplatform.com/uploads/2009/12/michael-cera_l.jpg&imgrefurl=www.readplatform.com/hey-hollywood/&usg=__jvAH1n2Dzlg0zqJ4ESLTWq_NjDw=&h=300&w=400&sz=29&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=aM5Ljkd9-VCcbM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichael%2Bcera%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ACPW_en___GB365%26biw%3D1001%26bih%3D375%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=716&vpy=86&dur=20&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=124&ty=131&ei=jYgHTaL3BIeAhAeyie3tBw&oei=jYgHTaL3BIeAhAeyie3tBw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Michael Cera, <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=gossip.whyfame.com/files/2010/10/vince_vaughn.jpg&imgrefurl=gossip.whyfame.com/tag/vince-vaughn&usg=__QkIjwbIB232GNzGDdnalXjmebqs=&h=594&w=409&sz=48&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=IYtUTtaNOkaYDM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvince%2Bvaughn%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ACPW_en___GB365%26biw%3D1001%26bih%3D375%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C301&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=442&vpy=-7&dur=1490&hovh=271&hovw=186&tx=92&ty=223&ei=x4gHTdj8DoaphAf3z5DuBw&oei=s4gHTbevII2zhAeSyJzuBw&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:16&biw=1001&bih=375" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Vince Vaughn or <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=3.bp.blogspot.com/_JUw2aRvPUwc/SrtnorujJxI/AAAAAAAAGxg/6pWSfUuv3rc/s400/Seth%2BRogen%2Bphoto%2B6.jpg&imgrefurl=imageworldblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/seth-rogen-hot-sexy-pictures-wallpaper.html&usg=__3i-XSNXNdb8_t9kk4bVoI-KGIEM=&h=346&w=360&sz=30&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=5anj5lPWxxOTiM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dseth%2Brogen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ACPW_en___GB365%26biw%3D1001%26bih%3D375%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=582&vpy=44&dur=155&hovh=220&hovw=229&tx=98&ty=190&ei=RYkHTb2EHY6FhQe0rejtBw&oei=RYkHTb2EHY6FhQe0rejtBw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Seth Rogen as romantic leads recently? Because I haven't.

Plus I don't know how many films with Woody Allen or Jack Nicholson or some other poor old chap being forced to cop off with a blonde woman in her 20s.

Outside of films, I am unable to come up with a single attractive male TV presenter in his 20s (outside of kids TV) where I oculd come up with dozens of gorgeous female presenters of that age.

[MrManager]

Oh yeah, all those ugly leading men we have nowadays.