Consent

[chocolatestar]

I was wondering how people on here defined this and why do you think people find it so hard to understand?

In general I find it pretty straight forward, someone does or does not freely and willingly consent. It's an active thing. I still struggle when looking at some of my own experiences though and can't tell if it is because they really are grey areas or if it is because of the way consent is viewed by society in general.

Just wondered what people's thoughts were on this issue.

Great idea for a thread as this comes up often.

I think consent is a tricky subject because in reality it is almost impossible to consent to anything without being influenced in some way. Influences can be both positive and negative but they affect our decision making process in a myriad of ways that we are not aware of most of the time.

For me the area where lots of us disagree is where the line is between freely consenting and being coerced into consenting.

If we take a non-emotive subject such as leg hair removal - I 'freely' choose to remove hair from my legs, however I make that choice within the context of a patriarchy where a lot of value is based on women being groomed and attractive. When you look at it that way it stops looking like free choice and more like conforming and obeying social pressure - a form of coercion.

When it comes to leg hair it isn't so terribly important but things like agreeing to have sex, selling sex, stripping, etc. are much more important in terms of women's politics.

Good points, it's more complicated than I first thought.

I was really horrified on the other thread to see people question the issue of consent when someone was asleep and had previously said no. That is totally clear cut to me. If people question obvious cases like that then what hope to other situations have such as when someone hasn't said no but has not said yes. I saw a horrible thing on line the other day where someone had posted that they had been in this situation and everyone said you have to say no and that's that. No one every questions why someone would stick their penis inside someone who had not said yes even if they are being totally passive. The whole thing makes me feel a bit ill to be honest.

That's how it feels to me, they can basically do what they like.

I did not hear about that case. That's vile. From eyecontact?! FFS. What would you have instead?

The law has changed slightly though since 2003 so that it shows that the defendant did not reasonably believe the the victim was consenting. Consent is all about whether the victim has the freedom and capacity to consent.

Although still shocking conviction rates it is slightly better than the old act which did rely on whether the defendant though she was consenting.....he has to show some actions as such to show she was consenting.

Yes I remember the 2003 changes as I lived down south at the time. I am in Scotland now, things are a bit behind here. I think reasonable belief is used as much as an excuse though - certaily if eye contact can count as reasonable belief then we have a long way to go. I read somewhere on another thread here that women are assumed to be in a constant state of consent so unless we are screaming the place down in our virginal white dresses we are basically screwed.

There is the problem that in lots of areas of life (not just sexual) consent is implied through silence.

Think of business meetings where the chair says 'does everyone agree?' and agreement is assumed if no-one speaks out.

The same applies in a medical context. Unless there is a lot of time and the patient is conscious consent is often assumed, read the childbirth boards for plenty of evidence for this.

The use of implied consent is used by those in positions of power to control the disempowered.

Women are raised to be 'good' girls who are complient, non-confrontational, non-argumentative and respectful/obedient. This then plays against us as our actions (or non-actions) are used, wrongly and unfairly, to blame us for what others do.

Saying 'no' is almost seen as unfeminine. I know lots of women who cant say it to their DCs, their DP/Hs, their parents, their bosses, their HCPs, their friends. Women are expected to meet the needs of everyone else and sacrifice themselves in the process.

Yes that is certainly my experience. I was raised to avoid confrontation at all costs. I still struggle with it actually. I remember in my own experience that it didn't even occur to me that I COULD say no. It just didn't enter my head. I was more worried about not pissing him off ffs.