Pony or horse?

[50BalesOfHay]

GD is currently informally loaning a 15hh irish horse. He's very nice, and she's doing a great job of sorting out the issues which have frightened his less confident owner, which is great for her as a winter project, and the owner's happy as if she sells him he'll be fit, in work and schooled rather than sold from the field.

He'll probably be for sale in the spring, but he's not the right horse for GD in the long term (conformation isn't up to the athletic work she'll want from her horse/pony) so we're starting to put together a 'wish list' prior to starting to look to buy in the spring. We can't decide whether to go for 15hh, or keep her on ponies a bit longer.

GD is 13, very tall and leggy, and whilst slim is muscular and srong. She looks right on 15hh, and has the strength (as well as the ability) to manage this difficult but basically genuine horse, so we're tempted to get her something around this size, but if we go above 14.2 she'll be competing with adults, but she did look a bit leggy and tall on her 14.2 last year so if we go for a 14.2 it would need to be chunky, and that's not really her style of horse. She's quite happy at the prospect of adult classes, but I wonder if it might be demoralising for her.

We've got a budget of around £3,000, she'd like something a bit more 'ready-made' this time round rather than one with potential that needs a lot of work (and she deserves it, she's really paid her dues with her last pony and current loan horse). Any thoughts about what we should be looking at would be very welcome

[Booboostoo]

Well no harm in giving them a call, mentioning your budget and seeing what they say. They can only say no, in which case you are back where you were anyway.

If your agreement with the loaner was until March then give notice and end the agreement. If the loanee really wants to she can find the money to buy the pony off you but at the end of the day you cannot afford the next pony you want so you are effectively subsidising the loaner's hobby.

If you have agreed with the loaner that she can have the pony for longer until she can afford her then it's a more difficult situation but at the end of the day it's your pony and you can do whatever you like with her. Imagine the situation reversed, suppose the pony had an unfortunate accident, could no longer be ridden and was effectively worthless - would the loaner break the agreement and return her? I would imagine yes. That is the essence of loans, you don't have the control, the benefits or the risks of ownership.

[50BalesOfHay]

She's lovely, Booboostoo, and I know her from pony club (seller is an instructor). She's a cracking pony but we just can't find much (any) more than £3,500.

I am considering being a selfish cow and bringing her 14.2 who's out on loan back as the loan agreement will be up in March, then selling her at the end of the season, but I feel a bit bad towards the loaner who wants to buy her, and has put loads of work in with her (but not till autumn as she's saving up, if she buys her it will be for her value prior to the schooling loaner has done) I was going to extend the loan until she can afford her, but at the end of the day she is our pony,

If I bring her back, keep her schooling up, and GD competes her successfully then her value will be pretty good, (but loaner won't be able to afford her) then we'll have a much better budget next year for a horse. But I'd feel really ba towards the girl who's loaning her. Hmmmm, I think I need to ask AIBU?

[Booboostoo]

Hvae you seen this one?
www.horseandhound.co.uk/classifieds/details.aspx?pu=BPmXvHOJFapxpHa6zlSgMw&cu=975&kw=0&ca=&st=&at=3&ag=9750.27657HHO:317674&pg=1&si=CAT*1**0&sr=h&cr=1&kwe=horses&ref=http%3a%2f%2fwww.horseandhound.co.uk%2fforums%2fusercp.php

[Booboostoo]

Fair enough! He caught my eye and I thought of you, but too big is just too big!

[50BalesOfHay]

Thanks Booboostoo, he does look lovely, but I think 16.1hh might be a bit big for her

[Booboostoo]

Anywhere near you? There is something nice about this chap:
www.horseandhound.co.uk/classifieds/details.aspx?pu=BPmXvHOJFapxpHa6zlSgMw&cu=975&kw=0&ca=&st=&at=3&ag=9750.30778HHO:317962&pg=1&si=CAT*1**0&sr=h&cr=1&kwe=horses&ref=http%3a%2f%2fwww.horseandhound.co.uk%2fforums%2fsearch.php_f2_searchid=8494839_f1_pp=25_f1_page=2

[50BalesOfHay]

Having tried a well built full up 14.2hh we think we're going to keep in pony classes as long as possible. GD loved the pony and didn't look leggy as she takes up the leg. We can't buy yet as our yard owner can't take new horses till the fields improve, and the ground's not fit to try properly at the minute, (and I haven't got the cash till April) so she stays on the shortlist, unless she sells in the meantime. We'll look at others of similar stamp, and see where we're at in the Spring (and if GD grows again by then we'll have to reconsider

[Booboostoo]

She sounds more pony like than horse like, but no harm in trying different sorts and seeing what DD thinks.

[50BalesOfHay]

She IS over-priced, but quite nice. However, there's no breeding, and tidied up for sale. topline is a bit so-so, she's a shaggy cob who's had her legs clipped, she is a nice pony but no competition history, rushes a fence and slightly dead off the leg and lazy in direct transitions (schooled in spurs, and although gd is competent in spurs it's not a road I want to go down) I 'd need a lot more info (and I'd hack that road, just not with a novice) I also think it's a bit off to let someone drive an hour each way then only have half an hour to spend when you're asking that sort of money without saying you only have half an hour. We'll see!!!

[headlesshorseman]

oooh 50bales great to hear you like Willow. I sat in the cafe at Witham gazing adoringly at her this morning whilst the kids were riding Disclaimer, I am not stalking you
I can completely understand why they don't hack out from Witham, so boxing her over to you sounds like a great idea.
Although if GD plans on having a growth spurt any time soon then a horse might be better in the long run. And the price is a bit but I am very tight lol

[50BalesOfHay]

Well, the pony was very nice, not a welshie after all, but non-specific Irish (no breeding recorded). Size wise, she was fine, (and has a height cerificate so would measure in for pony classes) but if GD has another growth spurt she'd outgrow her in a year so need to have a think.

I'd describe her as a nicely schooled, well mannered pocket rocket with a bold scopey jump. Nice looking pony, nice paces, nice outlne, etc, would do very well in workers at local level, and definite potential to event. She's possibly a bit over-priced, but a definite possible (and only works in the RS for the top level lessons as too good to spoil, and too much horse for novice riders)

However, when we arrived they only had half an hour available, which was fine for a first look, and they are only riding in the school and manege due to the state of the fields, and we'd want to try her in other environments, as well as in traffic (they're happy to box over to us with an instructor and second horse). I think we'll hold on for a second look until things dry out a bit, but could well be interested, but we'll see some others as well

[Ariela]

I would ask the RS to hack or walk them up the road for you to watch when you go to view and try.

[Zazzles007]

oops sorry see you have mentioned the discipline OP!

[Zazzles007]

Hi there OP, you haven't mentioned your GD's goals for herself and for the potential horse, the area she is competing in, or whether she is looking for something in the short term to sell on in 2-3 yrs, or a longer term prospect.

At her age of 13, it is very much transitional stage. Because she is growing, and if she is having regular lessons, she will upskill quite quickly from the ages of 13-16yrs (I know I did). And with the budget you have mentioned, it might be worthwhile considering something younger with a bit more talent, but somewhat less made so that she can train it and sell it on in 3-4 yrs time. If she sticks at it, she might transition through a number of horses between the ages of 13-18yrs.

Hope this helps.

[Butkin]

Sorry I should say these would be BSPS WHP classes. We don't do eventing so don't know if they have height rules.

[Butkin]

Horseylady if she wants to affilliate then she'd need an official height certificate.

Children not yet 14 (ie OPs) could ride in classes for ponies up to 13hh without taking on older children.
Not yet 17 can ride up to 14hhh
Not yet 20 can ride up to 15hh
Not yet 25 can ride up to 15.2hh

Therefore if she bought a 15.2hh animal she'd be jumping significantly bigger tracks against much older (intermediate) young adults. Maybe she won't want to take it this seriously but just something for OP to consider.

[horseylady]

Butkin - on the whp I have seen some VERY large 14hh ponies (taller than my full up 14hh welsh) And 15hh that are the same size as my 15.2!!!

I agree with what everyone says ESP about the hacking!!

[Butkin]

50 - have a chat with your daughter to find out exactly what she hopes to achieve. If she is going to compete at, say, show jumping or working hunter then there will be strict height requirements for the different classes.

It is an awkward step going from ponies to horses and you don't want to find that she is in a no-mans land whereby she is the right age for a class but the animal is too big.

Get her to look at the society's rule books and work out what classes she wants to do and then see the height restrictions.

We've some friends with lovely Working Hunter Ponies but if they don't "measure in" it is a nightmare because if you're too big for one class but very much on the small size for the next one up then that's a disadvantage.

[50BalesOfHay]

They don't hack out as they concentrate on dressage, and the road past the yard is a bit fast for novice riders. However, I won't buy anything I've not seen in traffic (and cantering in open fields in a group) as we hack a lot, so I'm going to ask them for suggestions on that one. We're not in any rush, but at least if we have a look we'll answer the horse or pony question. Am also going to ring about a 15.2 on Horsemart, we need to try lots of horses, I think

[Booboostoo]

Why don't they hack out? That would worry me as a horse that won't hack, especially if it's bad in traffic, or nappy about going out alone can be a total nightmare.

To try her out in traffic, have her ridden (ideally by you or DD so you can feel her reactions, although that is more dangerous if she's a lunatic), get someone to start up a car in front of her, watch out for reactions, if all well get the car to drive next to her overtaking, while she keeps moving in walk. Give yourself a bit of room at first to ensure she's OK, then repeat mimicking the distance you would have from a car overtaking on a road. Make sure the car overtakes while the horse is moving and the car comes in the opposite direction while the horse is moving. Repeat with a tractor (from the beginning, tractor in front of her, watch out for reactions, etc).

Don't let them fob you off with a car/tractor in front of the horse only. Many horses are fine if the traffic is crossing in front of them, but lose it when they are overtaken or meet the traffic face to face.

Have you looked at Horsequest? There seem to be a few 15.2 or thereabouts, allrounders, with RC or PC records (some also BE records), good to hack for around 3.5k (I assume that is negotiable in the current market).

[50BalesOfHay]

My thoughts too, Booboostoo re the level of work. I also want to be sure why she's being sold (although the school don't keep them too long as they get bored), and I also want to be sure she's not got too 'institutionalised' if she's been in the school a couple of years.

If we like her today then it will be the first of several visits, and I was also thinking of trying the 15.2 as well. They don't hack out, so I'd need them to suggest how we try her in traffic etc, and I also want to know whether she's been out compting or just on the premises. They've got a XC course, and I'd also like to try her round a SJ course. I'd also like ideally to try her away from the RS environment if she's not been out and about for a couple of years.

She's pretty expensive so I'd want something with a bit of talent (although if she'd got a competition record and was a Pony Club star and on their website she'd be even more). This pony has, however, piqued (sp?) GD's interest in dressage, which she's neglected up to now, so I'm thinking that could be good thing.

I think from today we'll get a good idea of whether a chunky 14.2 or a finer bigger one is the way to go. I think we need to try lots of different styles of horse to get the sense of what we're after, so just an initial try today (and haven't actually got the cash at the minute so can't impulse buy anyway)

[horseylady]

I love mares. In fact I pretty much always buy them over geldings.

Can you ride both that are for sale? Just thinking that although the chestnut may be slightly unsuitable in terms if greeness both are what you are looking at!! It could then possibly help you narrow down your search. They're both up for sale with the same lady.

Has vale view got anything for sale? Another place to look is Hargate which is not too far to me. Not sure if they've got anything but maybe worth a look (assuming the website is up to date!!)

[Booboostoo]

Oh Welshies can have stubbort characters but again that's a generalisation.

Just being really critical now, Welshie owners don't be upset! :)

[Booboostoo]

It's impossible to tell from a tiny advert and one photo, she may well be lovely and if you trust the sellers to give you an accurate picture of her temperament that's really, really important.

If I was going to be fussy about it I would ask:

• is she working at the RC at the moment? If yes what would she be like in a private home with less work?
  
• do they have test sheets from her dressage?
  
• is dr the only competition she has? At 10 I would expect a pony/riding club record in all three disciplines, she's old enough to be known if she is a reliable horse.
  
• what is she like in the summer? Personally I avoid mares, a good one is great but you need to know them all year round to be sure they don't change character when in season.
  

My final thought is that while she will take up your daughter's leg by being stockier so 14.2hh may be fine, being stockier will make any dressage efforts more difficult. The ideal thing for someone to learn in dressage is how to control the shoulders, and a stockier horse will make this more difficult. This is nit picking, I know, but just putting the thought out there. I would prefer a LW taller horse to a MW shorter horse for learning on.

[CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire]

That's a nice looking horse.