Strong pony - advice please

[paddlinglikehell]

Hi

A little long, but please bear with me!

My dd is nearly 8 been riding 6 months at a local riding school. For the summer we have loaned a 17 year old, 12.2. pony, who has been perfect, we keep her in the yard at home, (there are liveries there too). The pony was an old jumping pony and can be a little nappy in the sandschool, but is safe and kind. I used to ride a lot and have been teaching dd the basics, she is very competent in rising and sitting trot and transistions are generally good for her level there are moments when the pony cuts a corner, or tries to go back to the gate, but nothing major, just typical pony stuff.

Recently dd has had a couple of formal private lessons and this week cantered (under control, without holding on!) for the first time. She has a good seat and can do circles, but the pony is turning out to be very forward going and takes a lot of work to get back down to a reasonable trot after canter and can race. I could see dd really struggling to get things under control. Partly due to her inexperience and the fact the pony is opening her mouth a little. After the lesson, dd told me she was a little bit scared and didn't like feeling out of control, she said she wanted to cry!!! I don't want her to be worried about riding, she is so confident and will speak to the instructor before next time.

The instructor who I don't know that well, but has taught (very successsfully) other children at the yard, suggested that putting the pony in a pelham may help - a thick one, but I am not too happy with the idea. Currently she has an eggbut snaffle with a normal noseband (which the instructor did up very tight) and I just feel that dd is too young and her hands are moving too much to feel this is right for the pony.

However, I am very rusty with all this, it is a long time that I was very involved with horsey stuff and wonder if perhaps I am being a bit too cautious. Obviously I will speak to the owner about it, but wanted to run it past someone else and get any thoughts. I know that the pony used to (many years ago), be ridden in a flash noseband and to be honest would feel happier with this, but don't know enough about everything to know if this would help.

Sorry I sound a bit vague, but it really is a long time since I had to think about any of this!!!!

Thanks

[NellyJob]

There's no point in doing up a normal noseband up tight at all.
I would suggest a drop or flash noseband if the pony is opening her mouth and racing off.
Do speak to the owner to ask advice.

[marialuisa]

How is the pony getting away from her? Is he leaning on the bit, chucking his head up, opening his mouth, dropping his head? What I'd suggest would depend on the answer to be honest. If he's simply just a bit too strong for her I would suggest cantering on the lunge for a while and then possibly putting the pony in a wilkie snaffle (I know many hate them, but I would rather that than a pelham). Your DD is still very novice and it may just be that the pony is too sharp for her. Agree with Nellyjob that overtightening a noseband is pointless and potentially counterproductive if it causes the pony discomfort.

[CMOTDibbler]

Rather than adding gadgets, you need to just spend the time on teaching dd to control the ponies pace by working up and down speeds in trot and lots of canter/trot transitions.

[JRsandCoffee]

Will come down on t'other side of debate if I may..... I'm certainly NOT in the bit will fix it camp but.....

If DD's hands are a bit erratic as she finds her balance etc then it might actually be that the pony is running a bit if she feels a bit unbalanced and if she is inadvertently holding on a bit via the reins running away from the eggbut snaffle........ There was a piece if research done yonks ago on the action of various bits and the old fashioned eggbut came off very badly for bruising and generally not being as kind as was generally thought. Pelhams have as you know a different action, a thicker mouthpiece which the pony may find less busy and potentially sore on the mouth and tounge and a little bit of poll action if used with D rings. It can have a miraculous effect both mentally on the child and on the pony and put both in a much better position to work as CMOT above quite rightly suggests. As they get better together you could then look at going back into some type of snaffle in the school and then moving out in it etc.

So....counter intuitive as it may seem the pelham on the pony with a neck strap for your DD to stick a finger through if she loses her balance might well be a more comfortable set up for everyone. It might well also lead to her being less inclined to pull too hard as less will achieve more and she'll feel more confident having her percieved "brakes" on, also desirable in the long run and what you are ultimately after. It may not but I can certainly see where your instructor is coming from and wouldn't be uncomfortable with the suggestion at all.

Ponies tend to open their mouths if uncomfortable and therefore I don't think a flash or a drop is necessarily the best answer, particularly as if it was more marked during the running away incident. In your shoes I'd certainly try the pelham as a first stop, provided of course the owner was happy with it, the owner also may well have pearls of wisdom to add!

[SaggyOldClothCatPuss]

Sorry, but I disagree. A pelham is not just a thicker mouthpiece, its a curb chain too. If a child rides with the brakes on, then there's the curb and the poll pressure on permanently. Thats a lot to put on a pony. You can be a lot more subtle.
Try a hanging cheek, or a smaller ringed wilkie. Get the ponies teeth checked, then try a drop or flash noseband.
If the pony is leaning, try a waterford.
Throw a spanner in the works and try bitless!
DDs pony went from a straight happymouth, to a hanging cheek french link, to a plain snaffle with a drop noseband.
Im fed up of ending up with dangerous ponies, given to me because they are unrideable, only to find that the poor bastard has been bitted up and bitted up so that a tiny kid can stop it, only to end up with a dutch gag in a snaffle mouth! Tiny changes, and think about a sideways change of bit or equipment, rather than a quick fix!
Let your child do what she is comfortable with. She is only young and inexperienced. She will learn, and cantering will become easy, in time.
I was terrible for a while, when DD was small, I had to learn not to push. DD got there in the end, by just riding and riding. She found out for herself how things work with her own ponies, and they are now second nature.
FWIW, DD has been riding since she was 5. She was always given those free 'dangerous' ponies, and it took her a long time to find her feet. She must have been 10 or 11 before she was really competent, but now at 13, she can have a crack at most ponies.

[SaggyOldClothCatPuss]

Sorry, HUGE rant!

[JRsandCoffee]

Sorry, should have been clear, would either use a very loose curb or not at all as agree, textbook curb fit would not be a good idea as would place unfair pressure on the pony. I would also be watching like a hawk to make sure what you describe did not happen.

Suspect that we are probably singing from roughly the same sheet just with a different bit opinions. I too have got very, very sick of seeing children riding hopelessly over bitted ponies or indeed having the poor little guys come to me in bits, totally traumatised with a terrible reputation they don't deserve. I prefer the straight bar pelham with limited or no curb over jointed drop cheek snaffles (or god forbid) jointed pelhams because depending on the structure of the individual mouth the action on the tounge and roof of the mouth can be pretty severe, more so than might be immediately thought. Straight bar pelham can give more tounge room plus a bit of poll pressure like a dropped cheek. Dutch gags are IMO the most abused and misunderstood bits on the planet and I've seen one used in proper context a handful of times and I hate that people use them as a "this will stop it" fix with no true understanding as to the consequences.

Anyway, should have been clear and you are entitled to your rant as if one thing is ever the case in horses there are lots of different approaches and everyone has their own opinions!!!

[JRsandCoffee]

Sorry, didn't mean a straight bar, one with tounge room, wouldn't like to be inaccurate.....

[SaggyOldClothCatPuss]

Our large traditional shetland came to us in a straightish show pelham. We tried everything we had on her, and she just likes it! She had it for ages, until we had to change it, to unbend her, and get her nose off of the floor!
Our local pony club is responsible for most of our 'rejects'! Id love to tell their instructors exactly what I thought of their bit/tack advice!

[Treblesallround]

If your dd is 8 and has only been riding for 6 months then she's very inexperienced and may be overhorsed if the pony's got a bit about it (ie old jumping pony who can be nappy is not necessarily a novice ride), in which case it will assume a level of competence which may be beyond dd's experience. So trussing it up in a pelham or a wilkie or any other gag (and a wilkie IS a gag, it's just disguised) would be very unfair, especially if her hands are not light and independent of her seat. neckstrap, lunge, lead rein etc, get dd's seat sorted, get her able to do just about everything with seat and legs, then consider whether the pony's at fault.

[paddlinglikehell]

Thank you everyone for your replies I have read, some of them several times and think I understand it all!!!

I probably should have said that she has been riding at the riding school for 6 months, but has been riding a friends horse, on the lunge, walking and trotting, since she was much younger, so all in all about 20 months. We have had the pony since June and this week is the first time she has cantered her and it has only been twice. I was impressed she could manage to circle half the school and go large again to be honest, I was only mastering the trot at her age (by watching other people,no formal lessons for me).

The pony isn't unsafe and has never 'run off' as such, only tried to nap to the gate, especially if going past it, but dd is able to see this and react now, so that is much better as she has become a more active rider.

Marialuisa - I think the pony is opening her mouth (I presume why the instructor tightened the noseband), and she is just strong. She does come back, but races.

CMOT - have done lots on transitions and working on her seat with sitting trot with/without stirrups, now she is cantering will be working on those transistions too, but because up to now she has been so steady in trot, have not done fast trot/walk transitions, what a good idea!! Duh!

JRs - You describe what is happening better than me, the pony is running and I am sure it is because dd is erratic. Her seat is actually very good, I was surprised how solid she is in the saddle, but her hands do come up. I am meeting the owner on Thursday morning, so will discuss it with her, at least I feel a bit more informed now.

Saggy - I do agree with you. The pony is so sweet, kind and gentle, I don't want to spoil her, we didn't actually know she was so forward going until we started to canter and that isn't a bad thing really. DD will learn in time and I too am always asking 'do you want to ride tonight', I just am so proud of how gutsy and keen she is, I can't believe she rides like she does to be honest. I do try not to be pushy. Luckily she loves it, she told me that when she was in the lesson, before the scary bit, she felt 'Whee!!' and wanted to shout out 'I love riding', really loud, but didn't because of the new instructor.

Trebles - Yes dd is inexperienced, but I really don't think she is overhorsed, no I don't want to truss the pony up, I used to hate seeing kids at shows with every gaget going on their ponies. I do want to try and find some solution, as there has to be the cross over from where you are on ploddy ponies that are totally dead to the leg to a more forward going pony that you can progress on.

Thank you once again for all your replies. It has helped [she says off to Google some of the more unusual, obscure bits mentioned above]

[JRsandCoffee]

Good luck hope all sorts out!