If your school was asked to reopen, could you staff it?

[Appuskidu]

....if the groups of vulnerable staff were still absent?

I have posted about this a few times and some people seem doubtful that my school situation is widespread so I just wondered what the experience of other teachers on here was?

When the government announced that certain vulnerable groups needed to SI for 12 weeks, we had a big problem as we had so many members of staff in that group. We struggled through the next few days trying to get supply, having extra large classes, having TAs cover classes but it was v difficult-we simply couldn’t find any supply teachers in the end, so presumably other local schools were having the same issues. Thankfully we closed on the Friday anyway, because I think we would have had to say it simply wasn’t safe.

I keep saying posters saying the exit strategy must be to reopen schools but obviously leaving vulnerable groups at home for as long as it takes. I’m not sure schools CAN all reopen until the vulnerable workers are back though. Certainly not within that 12 weeks, but then what about afterwards...?

It’s not just teachers as well-we have a number of EHC plans for children with 1:1 adults. 2/3 of the adults are in their late 50s and have severe lung issues. They are paid shockingly low wages and neither ‘need’ to work-I would think they would both just resign rather than be forced to come back if they felt they weren’t safe.

What’s the situation in your school like?

[Greenandcabbagelooking]

We had roughly normal levels of staff absence in the week before we closed. However, we also only had about 75% of kids in, so we could combine some classes quite easily, especially upper school, where attendance was more like 50%.

We were setting our lessons online for those off, but it was literally just whatever we could upload of our normal lesson resources.

I would hope that if people choose to keep kids off once we go back, unless they are officially shielding or very vulnerable, we will not be expected to prepare extra work for those students. That was the most stressful part of the final week, trying to work out what I could upload to make my lesson make sense for students who weren’t there.

[Piggywaspushed]

Particularly in large schools the new app could see large numbers of staff and students almost continually taking two weeks off !

I have seen it on MN already ( on the same threads as you OP) that attitudes towards the vulnerable but not shielded are hardening. A lot of suck it up type stuff.
Within that vulnerable group are people who would likely become very very ill if they picked up the virus.

[BeeBella]

Nope. We had half off before the closures and I expect it to be the same when we reopen. We were closed for KS3 two weeks before the closures due to staffing.

[wasgoingmadinthecountry]

Only 1/3 of teaching staff/TAs would be expected to be in due to pre existing issues. Just to say, as a staff have had almost no illness time off in the last 5 years despite this so we are definitely not pulling a fast one . I'm chronically asthmatic but have only needed 1 day off in the past 12 years. Am not filling in for this though. I don't want to die.

[Appuskidu]

Thank you for all the replies-it’s been really interesting to read and, I suppose, reassuring to know it’s not just us.

I have to say, I’m sick to the back teeth of threads on here about schools going back-I think there have been 1-3 new ones per day since we closed. People seem so pissed off with teachers all of the time-like we have any power about opening or closing anyway?! There seem to be more lockdown threads about schools than anything else! Usually focusing on the holidays (which are always incorrectly attributed to being based on the harvest!!) and containing some really venomous views. I can’t ever imagine feeling that level or hate for a whole profession?

I am worried about too many things, I think.

Will we be able to safely staff if we open before the vulnerable people can return?

Can/should the vulnerable people be back before or even after 12 weeks?

What about pregnant teaches (we have a fair few)? If it’s ‘fine’ for them to come back, what if they don’t? What if they get signed off with stress or anxiety? We will really struggle to staff, then.

Will we have sufficient risk assessment procedures in place before we reopen (I think anyone working in a school probably knows the answer to that one). We barely have soap, let alone anti bac, hand towels or deep cleaning. Adequate testing, social distancing or contact facing is non-existent.

How can we implement social distancing?

Will staff be tested?

If we do reopen on a part time/staggered/proportional intake basis-will we still be setting/marking work for any children who aren’t coming in? How will that work?

Will it be compulsory? Will non-attendance be fined?


What sort of head start will Ofsted give us, before they’re back, looming?

If you haven’t seen the email/letter to the gov from the NEU, it’s worth a look. It’s basically just asking questions about what will be put in place to protect us when schools do reopen. Sign it if you agree-it might make a difference, who knows?!

[Whywhywhy1]

Yes I have seen the NEU letter and it raises all the concerns I have. All of these are very important issues. It cannot be a case of, right you’ve been on lockdown for 6 weeks ( or however long is decided) that’s long enough so back to school everyone goes. I know lockdown occurred to ‘flatten the curve’ and yes we really do have protect them amazing NHS but there needs to be a clear, transparent and comprehensive strategy for getting schools open.

[Piggywaspushed]

I am afraid to say OP that the government's PA answer to all things educational is ' we leave this decision entirely to headteachers and governors : we trust them to make the right ones'.

The government will make a decision to reopen (probably telling school leaders at the same time as the public) and schools will be left deciding how to implement social distancing etc.

My only hope is that 'reopening' does not mean what most on MN think it means!

I put the number of threads down to frustration, boredom and needing someone (other than family) to vent at, plus a target. At the moment, the target is never going to be the NHS (and nor should it be) and it seems it is also Bad Form to criticise the government, so the teaching profession is getting all the bile. I wish MNHQ would delete all the duplicate threads! You are right, it is upsetting to feel so hated.

In the real world outside the MN bubble I hardly hear schools discussed : it is certainly never the focus of the daily briefing. Interestingly, the oft cited Denmark has really tight measures in place at schools and expects all adults who still can to continue to WFH.

I am wondering what the NASUWT are up to!

As a secondary teacher, I am at a loss as to how any proper teaching provision 9which seems to be what some people think would instantly return) could be put in place with social distancing, part time timetables, reduced class sizes or anything at all. I also noted on the most recent thread that - despite a long running recruitment crisis- there is suddenly an army of volunteers(well 3!) wiling / desperate to come into schools and 'do their bit' really just to prove appoint. the tasks they suggested and the language made it plainly obvious that they meant primary schools should they be wanted . I look forward to seeing a bunch of teacher haters in the corridors of your average secondary school herding 15 year olds about and telling them what to do...

I cannot understand why these MN posters cannot understand (to borrow the government's' word du jour) how this is an utterly unprecedented situation and that teachers are working in a way they have never worked before whilst simultaneously worrying about the ramifications of a return to work and worrying about the future of education and of the children they teach. The amount of things and big decisions school leaders are juggling at the moment is crazy. Worrying about opening for key workers, worrying about staffing, worrying about remote learning,worrying about exams and results in secondary , worrying now also about how to reopen : all at the same time!

[twinnywinny14]

It’s a difficult one to predict because even if it seems ok initially, we have to remember that the cases of people catching it once everyone begins mixing again are going to rise and therefore staffing will possibly take a hit which may change the situation. My DH is a TA and he and other ‘high risk’ staff (not the shielding list) were sent home on the Monday before the schools partial closure announcement came on the Thursday. There were 5 of them in total from a one form entry primary school. They could reopen without those staff but if others get ill then possibly not. If they are asked to return then it’s a bit difficult as they have been told they are at risk of complications etc and that won’t have changed will it? But I can see a backtrack in order for those on the list to return for economic benefits

[Piggywaspushed]

I agree twinny . Let's not kid ourselves that that list is the size it is for a reason which is not entirely health related. I expect the vulnerable but not shielded to be told to make almost impossible decisions about work for themselves.

[Appuskidu]

I agree. There will be a lot of pressure on the ‘just’ vulnerable group of staff to come back so schools can get back to ‘normal’.

Parents demanding that schools open so their kids can have consistency, stability and routine are going to be very disappointed because I just don’t think it will provide anything like that any time soon.

If we do this as they have done in eg Denmark, going back with reduced numbers, masks, small groups, social distancing and unfamiliar adults will be very unsettling for many. If we just do it like I suspect the government will do it-ie announce it on the Bojo Show on Thursday night that it’s ‘business as normal and back next Monday’ and it’s down to head teachers to sort out the social discharging-it will be a complete shit storm.

The vulnerable staff will get stressed and possibly get signed off, we’ll have a daily struggle to get supply teachers, kids will be coughing all over the place, half will remain off but the parents still wanting all work provided for them. The kids will be hysterical at coming back and just to be told if know we can’t distance, but try not to touch’ and safeguarding will be out of the window. I can just imagine what the behaviour will be like, how the children with ASD will cope. Parents will want guarantees that we can safeguard their child’s medical conditions in the light of these events and we won’t be able to provide that.

Then Ofsted will probably ring!

[Cantaloupeisland]

Excellent posts Appu and Piggy - I have to admit the thought of going back to the kind of chaos we had in the week before closure fills me with dread. I have no faith in the government to put any plans in place - as you say it'll be open on monday, heads can decide how that's going to work in practice!
Funny that three weeks ago people were demanding closure and now this. If you take the holidays out they've only actually missed ten days. I fear we'll be pushed back in before it's safe due to the media fear campaign around the economy. Surely letting small shops and businesses reopen first would make sense, as Italy are doing. Not everyone has kids that need looking after!

[Piggywaspushed]

Yes, I think that last sentence is getting lost in the MN melee.

In the US (at least in some of the states) family members are allowed to visit so their childcare issues are less constricted. Not sure when the grandparents as childcare issue will be addressed.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Our Sen school is taking more pupils after Easter as they're not coping at home, but that's still going to be (I'm guessing) around a third of the school max, and so staff will still be rotated and we will have a vision for those who are ill. A number are socially distancing on the 12 week thing and at least one is shielding.

If I'm honest that's all schools could/ can do for some time unless the guidance around the vulnerable staff (not shielding) changes, though this will cause huge stress for those individuals (in one of them.)

Technically, the 12 week thing for them to was to ease pressure in hospitals. Callous but true. Though I cannot see how any would cope going back eg pregnant women.

Social distancing is impossible in sen schools like mine. Many have a mental age of a toddler / 5 yr old and crave physical contact.

[SansaSnark]

The last day I was in school, we were stretched to the max with any supply teacher we could find and part time staff in to do cover. PPA was used as cover, and we were still doubling up some classes. We're a medium sized secondary, and we had about 15-20% of staff off due to coughs/vulnerable (I don't know who was in each group).

Part of the problem is of course that every school was in the same position, and there is only a limited pool of supply teachers locally.

That night, I started coughing, and had to phone in and self isolate. The next day, school had to close to KS3 as classes couldn't be safely staffed.

I think we could manage if just vulnerable/shielding people were off short term, especially with gained time for people to use as cover. However, any kids still at home wouldn't be getting the support they currently are.

Any time a cough went around, we'd probably have to close/partially close unless there was quick testing available for staff.

We already have a split lunch due to limited space, so I'm not sure how social distancing would work, either.

[pfrench]

I've been in a mainstream primary school that normally has 450 pupils. We've had between 5 and 13 kids in between age of 5 and 9. Social distancing impossible.

[starrynight19]

The last week before school closed I covered my class , am a hlta , as my class teacher is pregnant.
We also had another class teacher who was shielding so that class was covered by a hlta. We had another teacher self isolating due to a member of her family being ill. It was difficult but manageable due to the lower numbers of children whose had chosen / had to self isolate.
We are now running on about 60% of staff keeping school open for key worker / vulnerable students.
We would be having to return with only certain year groups in at a time to effectively manage the children if we were to return.
We are quite a small primary school with mixed classes.

[starrynight19]

piggywaspushed exactly oh how I laughed at the posts I have read on here saying schools could be supported by parent volunteers.
I really am shocked that people honestly think schools can just revert back to business as normal as their children need routine or are bored.
Will be interesting to see where all these volunteers come from and how they get on tbh

[CheesecakeAddict]

It would be impossible to tell without having a deeper knowledge of why people were off.
The day after they asked at risk people to shield for 12 weeks, we could only open the school to KS4. We closed to everyone except keyworkers on the Thursday (before the school closure announcement).
However, so many things have changed.
There was the half term Italy ski trip and some staff were symptomatic so we're off. They'd probably be back on rota now. Some people, like myself, were originally told they were in the at-risk category, but then it was only certain strains of my illness, so I could be back. More people since could be developing symptoms so wouldn't be able to come in.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Winter will be a nightmare. There were many bad viruses around as it was last year; we nearly had to close the year before.

Until testing is widely used and reliable schools won't be able to stay open.

[thunderthighsohwoe]

We could staff (teacher wise) 4 out of our 7 classes, and probably cover the other three with HLTAs, with those absent teachers (two pregnant, one with two members of her household high on the shield list) providing slides and voiced over teaching input, as none of them have small children to care for at home. So I suppose maybe years 4, 5 and 6 would be best placed to manage this kind of learning supported by an HLTA, and the rest of us would cover the younger year groups?

This is of course assuming that my 72 year old MIL would be ‘allowed’ (she’s certainly willing!) to resume childcare of my toddler, as she usually does. If not, then that’s another teacher down!

We have five children with full time 1:1 support for extreme need, and two more in reception class who need this too so we always have extra adults in that room to cover them. Unfortunately we couldn’t staff this due to TAs shielding, so I suppose they’d have to stay at home. Or do the five with EHCPs have the right to come in? How does that work if we don’t have staff to take care of their toileting, medication and behavioural needs? Would we then open to fewer classes in order to cover these children 1:1?

And how in the name of a**e would we manage social distancing in a Victorian building where the children are literally crammed in to the point of several having to move for one to leave their seat?

I’d love to see my class again and help them find some kind of normality, but I am really, really glad I’m not a headteacher trying to work the logistics out!

[Appuskidu]

We have five children with full time 1:1 support for extreme need, and two more in reception class who need this too so we always have extra adults in that room to cover them. Unfortunately we couldn’t staff this due to TAs shielding, so I suppose they’d have to stay at home. Or do the five with EHCPs have the right to come in? How does that work if we don’t have staff to take care of their toileting, medication and behavioural needs? Would we then open to fewer classes in order to cover these children 1:1?

Yes-that’s the situation in our school, too. We have some 1:1 staff with pretty significant health issues so this is going to be long term.

What will those children do? I can’t see some of ours reacting well to any one else-not that there would be anyone else to be with them as our only other TAs would probably be ‘teaching’ classes of 45!

[Thisisitisit]

I left teaching last year after having DS, I would be happy to go back if there is a shortage (obviously recruitment isn't happening here at the moment in the usual way), if it means those who are vulnerable can stay home for longer. Does anyone know if there are rumblings of any schemes like this? Secondary science teacher, have taught for 7 years.

[Appuskidu]

I would imagine supply teachers will be in demand, though it may all boil down to money. If schools are paying for all of the vulnerable people to be off and then paying for all of them to be replaced by supply-that could get complex for budgets. Also, if you have more than half the school being taught by supply teachers, that gets complex logistically!

[Thisisitisit]

True, I just feel really helpless when I know some of my colleagues are really struggling for a plethora of reasons. I have a lot of teaching resources I could perhaps share and see if anyone can make use of.