Portability - ds's school on strike for 3 days

[Feenie]

Our governors eventually voted to go the the LEA/union agreed policy to honour portability. Ds's school want a 'may' honour portability, which imo erodes the entire meaning of 'honour'.

Both the NUT and NASUWT have been in and upshot is 3 days of strikes. Parents are divided, mainly because management couldn't wait to Tell us that the unions are going to pay the teacher's salary, which I'd never heard of before. I am fully in support of the teachers; reading between the lines, I think this is probably the last straw in a long line of things that have upset them.

Is this happening elsewhere?

[StrangeNewLands]

And that's an important point.

I have no interest in becoming SLT. I love being in the classroom, I love teaching. I want to become better and better at teaching. But I am forced to do more and more outside the classroom in order to prove my 'worth'.

Yet the more I do outside the classroom, the more my teaching suffers and the less time I can devote to it . Honestly, some days now the teaching gets in the way of all the things I have to do!

[EvilTwins]

I work in a small secondary and probably have the same level of responsibility that a member of SLT does in a bigger school. I just don't want the SLT contract. I am a HOD, have two whole school responsibilities and have just interviewed to become an SLE.

[TeenAndTween]

Then they've misnamed it, and that is massively confusing to the general public.

I in my naivity thought performance related pay meant, you know, performance. Like whether more children know phonics, or can order a meal in French, or progress in mathematical Olympiad, or do better in whatever you think teachers should be doing, or even improved classroom management (This would be like my technical grades above)

Not doing extra responsibilities. That should also be paid for, but under some kind of 'responsibilities' scheme.

Not all teachers will be super duper brilliant ones.
But some may like to take on extra responsibilities such as running clubs, extra trips, progress leaders, form tutors etc.
Both types should be rewarded within the pay schemes, both are needed.

(Still can't see justification for portability though)

I'll shut up now and focus on helping my DD revise for her exams.

[CharlesRyder]

That was the whole point of threshold Teen.

You automatically got better for the first 6 years because you were more experienced. I would say this is fair. In general teachers who have been round the block are better.

Then you had to demonstrate improvement to get further increments.

Now it's all about how much responsibility you will take on. 'Performance' means being prepared to squeeze your own blood over the school grounds at 8pm, not being good at teaching.

[TeenAndTween]

This is interesting.

At my old company there were 3 ways someone could progress.

They could become a people manager (looking after a team of people, making sure their skills developed, looking after departmental budgets, recruitment etc.)

They could become a project manager (running a particular project, being responsible for developing plans, meeting commitments etc)

OR

They could progress up technical grades becoming the local, site, regional, organisational expert in their field.

The impression I have got from here is that the only way to 'progress' in teaching is to become one of the SLT. Maybe there should be more 'progress routes' or something in teaching??


Our company also had performance related pay (having gone off a formulaic system the year I joined in the late 80s).

If your 'worth' to the company was improving (basically you were getting better at your job) you got an above inflation pay rise.

If you were effectively standing still (doing your job but no demonstrable clear improvement) you got an ~inflation pay rise.

If you were underperforming against your current role/pay you got a below inflation pay rise.


I once went to training course in the US from someone well respected in SW engineering. He said that many SW engineers repeated the same experience for 10 years, whereas the good ones got 1 new year's worth of experience each year - they learned and improved.

I could imagine that being the case with teaching. The first 5 years or so you are on a steep learning curve - you get better every year (or quit). But after that I could think that some teachers continue to improve, whereas others maybe plateau and don't really improve. Is that the case?

[Feenie]

UPS3 union rep here too

Also SMT.

[CharlesRyder]

Under the current scheme though Evil your school could knock you down the scale if they deem UPS3 to be the preserve of people with leadership positions.

My school made it clear there are three options:
Take on the responsibility required of your pay point.
Choose not to take on the responsibility and accept a point cut.
Keep your pay point, don't take the responsibility, go on capability.

The problem is that there aren't enough roles of responsibility to go round all the high-graders.

They have also said that teachers who do not 'progress' each year will eventually go on capability so at some point you face SLT or death.

Messy.

[EvilTwins]

I'm UPS3. I have absolutely no inclination to go up to SLT so have potentially reached my earning potential aged 38. DH's company also does performance related pay, but he can get a pay rise every year, as long as he continues to perform well.

I am unlikely to move to a school which wouldn't match my current salary - what would be the point?

[chilephilly]

And also - schools want the younger staff because 1. they can pay them much less and 2. they are much easier to bully into chasing ridiculous target grades, working endless extra hours for free, consenting to endless observations...

UPS3 union rep here!

[Feenie]

Quite.

[StrangeNewLands]

Either that or they will want the more expensive teachers, but will want to pay them much less. Teachers who need a job might face the choice of massive paycut or no job. Yet they'll still be expected to do the work they did on much higher pay.

Yes I'm sure this happens in other jobs, but why 'race to the bottom'? What's wrong with fighting to keep those terms and conditions that were good.

[TeenAndTween]

sovery Why do you think that schools will go for the cheaper NQT option rather than more experienced?

I know schools have to balance budgets and that these are very tight.

But the whole raison d'etre of a school is to teach. Surely the Head and the Governors know this? They won't want to have a whole bunch of inexperienced teachers will they? Surely they want a mix of youth and experience. Just like happens in other professions. Too many 'old hands' and you miss youthful enthusiasm and new ideas, too many youngsters and you haven't got the steadying hands of wisdom.


Generally. I do get the fact that teachers are generally very dedicated and work very long hours in term time. And that they run clubs etc which 'add value' to the pupils without extra renumeration. I would be happy as a parent and a tax payer (and a relative of a teacher) if these could be sorted out, by increasing school budgets to pay for general pay rises, time for clubs and more PPP(?) time or whatever.

I just don't get as an outsider why teaching is so different that it needs pay portability, or why you think schools should want to shoot themselves in the foot by always going for the cheap option. I haven't found an argument on here yet that convinces me.

[CharlesRyder]

My school seems to have lost internal 'portability' from year to year. A few teachers who have deemed to not be doing enough to warrant the increment they have risen to have been busted down.

Another has said that they don't want to keep a responsibility, and whereas previously they would have held their pay point, they are also going down.

[StrangeNewLands]

They are directed time. So paid in that they are part of this time, (but my 1265 hours are used up way, way before July.)

I should have been more clear that for parents' evenings there is no additional payment (ie no overtime, some schools will finish by 5 pm, others by 9pm. There aren't many other jobs where you could work a double length day and have no additional pay or overtime).

We are paid for 195 days per year. My 6 nights of parents evenings (approx. 9 hours each time - 27 hours spread over 6 evenings). Takes me over the 195 days (yet officially it doesn't).

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear. In my head it makes sense!!

[chilephilly]

Are you sure StrangeNewLands? Open Evenings and parents' evenings are in my job description and as such are part of 1265. (State maintained school)

[StrangeNewLands]

But why should they take on more and more responsibilities? You do realise that the more they do outside of the classroom, the more time it takes away from planning, teaching and assessing the actual lessons.

This wouldn't have mattered so much, except for the fact that the paperwork overload is already detracting from the teaching in the classroom.

You do realise that teachers are only paid for a certain number of hours per year? Anything above this is unpaid (and those hours get used up very, very quickly):

So,
Clubs
The holidays
Parents' evenings
Events evenings
Open evenings
School fairs

Are all done extra and above the job and are unpaid.

Removing portability will mean no teacher will leave their school where they have a decent salary. Schools will stagnate - not good for children.

You will end up with a lot of staff on a high salary in the same school, because no one will want to move...

[bronya]

Not that teaching isn't rewarding and the children aren't fab - they are, but there's less and less time for their wonderful selves, and more and more for paperwork :(.

[bronya]

I don't think it would be a problem, if they introduced different pay bands of job. E.g. band 1 = class teacher, no subject responsibilities. band 2 = class teacher + run a club, band 3 = class teacher + club + non-core subject etc etc. But there aren't such bands - there are just thousands of 'ordinary' teachers who run a class + 2/3 subjects + a club or two. All that for (potentially) £21,000 (£17500 take-home pay, when to put one small child in nursery is £14500 for the year...). No thanks.

I can re-train (and will, when both of my DCs are a bit older) for the grand total of £4500 and get a job that pays £40 per hour, has little take-home work at the end, is satisfying, rewarding and has pleasant customers. I could work 8 hour days at weekends and earn over £30,000 pa, or just one day a week and earn half that. So why would I teach?

[smugmumofboys]

Lougle. Many teachers on UPS, 'poor' or otherwise, are either not moving as no-one's hiring at that grade or moving into management. At our school practically everyone who's leaving/ retiring is being replaced by an NQT.

[Parliamo]

The other problem with losing portability/ introducing pr pay that nobody seems to mention is the amount of time that will be spent on negotiating every individual teachers salary on an annual basis. Time means money. It will be endless. Before, salaries were negotiated by a few people centrally with unions there for checks and balance etc. now each school will have to buy in hr/ legal support to resolve disputes. There might be disadvantages to the old system, but I see no advantages to the new one. I really object to the whole - that's how it works in the private sector argument, because it is not the private sector. Introducing privare sector type initiatives without the funding/ flexibility to back it up will not improve things - only for some who shout loudest and are opportunistic (parents and teachers). It certainly won't give good value for money or make things more efficient.

[lougle]

It's how the NHS works now. Your job is banded. A qualified nurse starts on band 5. If you get to the top of band 5, the only way to get a pay rise is to get a promotion to a band 6 job.

Portability should not be automatic. Neither should increments. Performance related pay has removed standard increments.

My fear with the removal of automatic portability, however, is that poor teachers on the UPS who are coasting will stay at a school because they know they'll go down if they move and good teachers will move around to get promotion.

[bronya]

The difference is, that other jobs generally advertise a salary - so you can choose to apply for one that's a pay cut with fewer responsibilities, or aim for a higher salary with more responsibility. In teaching, they're just advertising for a teacher. If you had 10 years of experience, they'd still expect you to take on all the responsibilities that you usually would, but would like to pay you the very lowest amount possible . Then they would never progress your salary, so in a graduate job you'd be stuck on £21 000 for ever.

If every school did this, the profession would struggle even more to attract new teachers, and anyone with the ability to get a different job, would. So it really would become, 'If you can't do, teach,' because it would be the job of last resort for most graduates. How would that help our nation's children?

[TeenAndTween]

Feenie - As for the suggestion that someone who has had a career break should be willing to take a pay cut - why? Surely that penalises mothers - that cannot be right.

But in many professions, someone who has been out of work for whatever reason may well be out of date with new methods, standards etc. Often that may mean taking a pay hit, at least initially, to get back into work.

If schools want quality staff (which I maybe naively assume they do, maybe you think they just want staffing on the cheap, though that would presumably later be reflected in results) then they will have to pay well to attract and keep them (as happens in other industries). Doesn't dropping pay portability just go hand in hand with performance related pay?

Would you really not apply to a school that doesn't promise portability? Or just not accept a job that offered less than your current pay?

Apart from the fact that teachers have had portability until 5 minutes ago, do you have any good reasons why it should exist that don't equally apply to other graduate jobs that don't have it? Or examples of other areas where it does exist?