Aggression at vet??

[weebarra]

Hi all! I hope you can help. DH has just taken our 9 week old pup to the vet and we've just had a call to say that he's been so aggressive that they can't vaccinate him. He's bitten one of the nurses.
He was at the vet for his first jabs but that was with the breeder. He's not aggressive with us - a bit bitey, but he's a Labrador.
I'm going to phone the breeder and then a behaviourist, anything else I should do?
He's such a lovely clever boy and I'm now really worried!

[BiteyShark]

My dog has had many vet admissions and it's interesting to note that his vet says behavioural changes are not unusual in dogs because it's a strange, noisey, frightening environment and there are other dogs who are also frightened because of this.

My dog goes the other way in terms of switching off and shutting down. But the key thing is my vet practice understands that dogs behaviour changes and swings between extremes especially when the owner isn't there for support.

I would consider a fresh start at a new vets to slowly build up your dogs confidence.

[GeraltOfRivia]

You've had so much good advice and I agree with changing vets. You may have to rely on reviews and a dash of gut instinct given the current situation.

[Veterinari]

@Hoppinggreen

What a shame you removed your business from a vet practice who clearly noted an underlying problem and detected your dog may be a risk to your child, and encouraged you to get professional help. It seems your behaviourist confirmed this but thanks to you engaging that professional help on the vet nurses recommendation you were able to take action thus safeguarding the welfare of your dog and child. Resource aggression can significantly escalate over time and children in the home are more likely to suffer severe dog-related injuries than anyone else.

Weird that you'd take professional advice which has clearly resulted in good outcomes for your child and dog, but then remove your business and criticise that advice on a public forum

[Poniesandgin]

Actually I have met puppies that have displayed severe fear aggression as puppies as young as this.

Could I vaccinate it? Absolutely. Would it cause more problems by muzzling/restraining a puppy as young as this, probably.

I’m not saying the vets were wrong but there’s a possibility that this puppy does have an issue and it’s better to address it now than later.

Finally, to those who think a dog being aggressive at the vets is acceptable. Not only is this crap for the staff but it’s awful for your dog and it’s something you should be really trying to address the second it’s noticed.

[Hoppinggreen]

My criticism is that they had judged my 6 month old scared puppy who was in pain and decided that he was dangerous based on seeing him once not at his best when he had been for check ups, vaccinations etc since he was 8 weeks old without incident.
My behaviourist said the dog was NOT a risk after observing him interacting with the whole family but identified a potential issue with DS and showed us how to make sure everyone was safe.
If they had said “ he was a bit aggressive when he came round from anaesthetic you need to make sure it doesn’t happen more often” or similar I would have appreciated their advice. However, the way it was handled was very dramatic and I felt over the top (without describing exactly how it was done). When I asked for more details he had apparently snapped at a work experience person who went to take his bowl after his first feed in almost 24 hours. I felt that part of the problem may have been because he’s a breed associated (Wrongly as any dog can react if scared) with being very soppy and they were surprised at the change in him after the anaesthetic. They phoned immediately after the op before he woke up to say how lovely he had been with everyone, and seemed to especially love the Trainee. I think they were all shocked at the change in him and (I feel) overreacted.

[Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel]

Agree with PP. something is up at that Vets. Change Vets, they sound incompetent. At best. At worst, god knows. I dread to think!

[Veterinari]

@Hoppinggreen
If all they'd said was 'you need to make sure it doesn't happen again' then the vast majority of dog owners would not have sought professional help. Trying to bite a staff member after recovery from anaesthesia is absolutely not normal dog behaviour so it's weird you're trying to justify it - your dog clearly had resource-based aggression which posed a risk to your family. You're really lucky the vets were able to discuss this with you and advise you seek the support you needed. It was their action and emphasis on the potential dangers (resource guarding can escalate very quickly) that resulted in you seeking the advice that n your own words kept everyone safe.

Instead of being grateful that your dog's aggression was identified and you were given sound professional advice, you seem to have taken it as a personal attack and withdrawn your custom. It's seems a weird way to repay a business that gave you professional advice and resulted in seeking help for your dog's aggression - type of aggression that is often associated with bites to children as your vet practice rightly pointed out. Stating that they overreacted to an attempted bite by advising you seek professional help and following their legal duty of care to advise you keep your child safe, shows a lack of understanding of both resource aggression and the ethical duty of veterinary professionals.

It's even weirder that you're still resentful of their obviously sound advice years later and trying to present it as an example of poor vetting, when it's pretty clear it's exactly the opposite

[Kathers92]

@Veterinari so according to you a puppy who has just come round from surgery and is hungry and scared wouldn’t try to bite?

I have one that will and one that won’t not all dogs are the same.

My vets created such a negative experience for my big dog so much so that he is now terrified when had previously been friendly towards the vet. They also left him panicking in a muzzle that didn’t fit him for four hours after his castration. He was in such a state the he bit through his lip and tore his pads not once did they think to call me to come and get it him or even calm him down down because it is “policy” that dogs stay a certain amount of time after surgery.

Sadly many vets don’t bother to see animals as having feelings or even needing a different way of handling it’s become for many all about money and up selling unnecessary treatments/tests

[NannyPear]

Ding ding ding @Kathers92 we have a winner!!! "It's all about the money." Wouldn't me a Mumsnet thread about vets if that old chestnut didn't come out.

[Veterinari]

@Kathers92

I speak from experience and having anaesthetised hundreds of dogs, no biting is not normal after surgery.

He'd also be unlikely to be particularly hungry sine hoppinggreen clearly states he'd just been fed... but even if he were then I'd not expect him to bite.

Your experience sounds bizarre and unacceptable - but I'm struggling to see the connection between it and an example where a vet followed their legal and ethical obligation, resulting in professional behavioural advice being taken, and improved family safety.....

I'd also love to see any evidence you have for:
Sadly many vets don’t bother to see animals as having feelings or even needing a different way of handling it’s become for many all about money and up selling unnecessary treatments/tests

Though I suspect that you're probably applying one extreme experience to a population of approx 25,000 people, which is of course wildly inaccurate and unreasonable. Out of interest how many of them do you know? And what research have you done?

[Hoppinggreen]

I’m not going to repeat word for word what the vet nurse said but believe me it certainly WAS very dramatic and over the top - when they called me into a separate room I though something awful had happened. When I asked for details the only thing thing he had done was snap at someone when they had gone to remove his food bowl after a small post op feed and 24 hours starvation - which is a lot of a 6 month old puppy.
The behaviourist also agreed that she felt the vet had overreacted. I’m not going to repeat word for word that conversation either.
Our dog had gone to that vet since 8 weeks old, they had met him plenty of times and knew his behaviour coming found from the anaesthetic was out of character and there was no need to frighten the life out of me and call me aside in a manner that suggested Ddog had ripped someone’s throat out .
I don’t think that vets are just in it for the money and I certainly don’t think I know better than them but take it from the person who was actually there the Vet didn’t handle it appropriately.

[Veterinari]

@Hoppinggreen

The vet has a legal responsibility to advise you of concerns. Resource guarding aggression is serious and can escalate VERY quickly. Your dog trying to bite someone post op is NOT normal (based on hundreds-thousands neutering experiences) but I can see you're determined to 'justify it' even though I expect your experience is pretty limited? You can dredge up all the 'excuses' you like. The bottom line is that that is not a normal way that the majority of dogs would behave.

I would absolutely see that a a danger signal and be VERY concerned if you had a child in the house. Your vet legally HAS to emphasise the risks to you - if they did not they could be legally liable for discharging a potentially aggressive dog to your household without giving you appropriate behavioural first aid.

However I'm also well aware that you've clearly decided that your vet was unreasonable. You don't really care about the fact that your dog behaved abnormally compared to thousands of other dogs, that your vet had a legal and ethical duty to clearly emphasise the risks to you or that your behaviourist also diagnosed and treated a problem with resource aggression, thus reinforcing the vets diagnosis. Your focus is that you didn't like the way this information was conveyed to you by the vet nurse, apparently being taken to a separate room was a problem (would you have preferred that they discuss your dog's confidential medical/behavioural history in public?) and clearly whilst there may well have been some communication issues, it's a shame you're allowing that to cloud what are pretty obvious facts - your vet practice did you a favour by identifying a serious issue and that allowed you to seek and implement professional behavioural advice. Without which the problem could we'll have worsened and endangered your child/family.

You are clearly determined to slag off the vets/vet nurses for doing their job and giving you advice that you acted on and that safeguarded your family. That's absolutely your choice. Just don't expect anyone everyone to agree with you pretty ludicrous 'example' of veterinary 'bad practice'.

[Veterinari]

The behaviourist also agreed that she felt the vet had overreacted.
If you presented the information as you have here then the behaviourist probably did a fair amount of smiling and nodding and relationship-building with you to placate you so that they could implement a behaviour plan effectively for your dog.

It's exactly what I would have done. The anonymity of Mumsnet allows me to point out when owners are being utterly unreasonable, but in real life I focus on smoothing the relationship even when the client is being unreasonable, simply because that's the most productive way to achieve a good outcome for the animal. I suspect that the behaviourist, as a professional, would do exactly the same.

[Poniesandgin]

All he had done was snap on recovery

Great for the person being snapped at. I have friends who have life altering injuries from a ‘snap’ and it’s not normal, even when hungry.

[Booboostwo]

It is possible for a puppy to make a very strong negative association with a particular environment or action, so it is possible that something happened the first time he visited the vets with the breeder and the second visit triggered these associations. Or it may be that the puppy became very distressed on his own at the vets and behaved atypically.

Practically, if I were you I would wait for lockdown to end and then see if your vet could accommodate you with a visit to see what happens. Perhaps your presence will be enough to reassure the puppy, perhaps you will notice a significant change in behavior which will need addressing perhaps with counter conditioning, perhaps everything will be fine.

Either way I think it’s a good thing to train all puppies to be comfortable with a muzzle, you never know when they will need to wear one in their lives. And if this puppy does have a problem that is triggered at the vets, a muzzle may well be part of your plan for dealing with it.

[tsmainsqueeze]

kathers 92-" sadly many vets don't bother to see animals as having feelings or even needing a different way of handling ,it's become for many all about money and up selling unnecessary treatments /tests "
As a nurse with over 30 years experience in practice this is not my perception of our profession .

[HaveYouSeenMyBones]

Sadly many vets don’t bother to see animals as having feelings or even needing a different way of handling it’s become for many all about money and up selling unnecessary treatments/tests

I have never once come across a vet 'in it for the money'.

Five years of study, approx £50k in debt for an average salary of £34k. Bloody hell, vets in it for the money are bloody idiots - there are MUCH easier ways for smart people to earn much, much more than that without the hassle of school.

OP - glad you decided to look for another vet. One that calls a 9 week old pup aggressive would have me running for the hills, tbh.