Friend's cruel day training tips. Need to vent.

[startingafresh1]

I'm in holiday with a group of friends. I have a two year old Labrador who I've trained using force free reward based methods. IMO he's pretty well behaved: reliable recall, sit, extended stay, no jumping up. We've done some force free gun dog training with him (just for fun, no intention of actually shooting), and he's been brilliant until recently where he's become so obsessed with the dummy that he doesn't reliably wait before fetching it. We are working on this. He's also very excitable around other dogs, but does recall to me when in company and I pop him on the lead if other dogs prefer not to say hello.

Friend has had fun dogs for years. He claims his dogs are impeccably behaved. I sat with him over dinner and he spoke with authority about his methods which include choke chains, twisting dog's ear to force a sit, forcing a Dog onto its back and holding it there as a submission exercise. If recall fails his dogs are given a good hiding.

His recommendation to deal with DDogs failure to wait for the release command before fetching is some sort of narrow wire collar that chokes and hurts if he pulls on it.

I was utterly horrified but I'm ashamed to say I listened and simply told him I had never hurt my dog, and never will, and his methods don't fit with me.

I'm furious this morning. I wish I had told him what I really thought of him. People see him as some sort of dog genius. I'd had a couple of drinks and didn't want to start a big argument.

I'm just ranting really!

[Smotheroffive]

DEFRA 18.8.18

[Smotheroffive]

I have one like that wellhellothere, but with squirrels and cats. Been working on it (without e-collar) had my first opportunity present the other day, as a cat appeared ahead, and it meant I had to test the training. Dog stopped, mid-run, and came back. I guess you'll say it wouldn't work on your ddog, but I think something would. If it didn't work for mine I would have to choose my exercise spots very carefully and still would not resorting to an e-collar.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

Interesting, i missed that! I know they were campaigning for it. Is it legally in place as of now or from a certain date? Means a lot of folk who rely on the stupid things will have to find other methods to control their pets

[Smotheroffive]

I wonder how your friend would ever be convinced his methods were wrong and cruel?

I guess if he sees your ddogs exemplary behaviour without cruelty! Does he know other people achieve the same end without any cruelty?

[Smotheroffive]

E-collars are banned now in UK too. This was fairly recently.

Really upsetting reading OP, how vile! I know of horrible run in advrse method where dog not aware its on a long lead and left to run at speed until it reaches the end of it length which I feel could break its bloody neck but according to many this is completely acceptable. I think it's shit.

I have hear it said they only do it once !!
Also will knee jumping ddog hard in chest. I will raise my knee, or turn, side step, etc but not to hurt, to stop myself being knocked over by large dog, it just stops the jump.

there's a lot of very unhealthy competition that seems to trump everything, the end justifies any means atall.

I've seen ddogs hurt in shows simply for not taking first place (when owner thought no-one was looking, I find it very hard to deal with).

Very hard.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

I had dogs that could only be let loose in secure areas, for various reasons. One being recall. At no point would i ever have put an ecollar on. To me they are barbaric. And sadly i have seen what happens when people use them without knowing what they are doing or following shit advice from shit trainers

When England bans the ecollars as they have elsewhere, what will people do?

[wellhellothereall]

Wolfe dogmatic collars are great

[wellhellothereall]

Hmm I have a different take on e collars. I have a big dog who is great. Fabulous with humans fabulous with other dogs, recalls better than any other dog in the park BUT if he sees a deer or squirrel he will run and run and run. Through barbed wire, over roads etc. No amount of reward for him is as good as the thought of catching a deer. So he has an Ecollar as is the only thing that stops him from running. We only have to make the noise now and he returns, but it is necessary and frankly without it I think he would have been knocked over or torn to shreds by now. His sister doesn't need one, but he does

[Wolfiefan]

Mine doesn’t mind her dogmatic at all. She’s never once tried to get it off and It doesn’t tighten to cause discomfort or pain.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

I was very pleased when Scotland banned ecollars because there is a shoddy arse trainer there who claims to work miracles with 'problem' dogs - primarily rescue dogs. Hoping now he actually has to train he will change professions

[Pissedoffdotcom]

I'm the other way. Done right a headcollar can revolutionise a walk for dog & owner. Like a collar for a new puppy, it takes getting used to but done right it won't hurt the dog.
An ecollar however is, imo, the ultimate tool for lazy dog owners. Don't want to get to the route cause of your dog's problem & want a quick fix? Use an ecollar, problem solved. Except it isn't solved & you end up with a dog on edge more often than not. When i did rescue stuff i refused flat out to associate with anybody who used them, especially on vulnerable dogs with shitty pasts.

[Doggydoggydoggy]

I have used a head collar in the past, I wouldn’t again.

Most of the dogs I see on them don’t look completely happy and relaxed.

I treat any tool you have to actively desensitise a dog to with suspicion, sometimes they are necessary, muzzle for instance but I would question how ‘positive’ a tool that requires active desensitisation to get the dog comfortable is.

When you read up on just how the head collar works how can it possibly be humane?

It is a very aversive tool!

Re e collars.
I have seen dogs trained on e collars who didn’t look at all uncomfortable, weren’t trying to get it off and were completely and utterly engaged with their owner.
Ditto for prongs.
I can believe that in skilled hands, correctly used, an e collar may not be cruel.

That said, of all the tools an e collar is going to be one of the easiest to abuse isn’t it?
Therefore I would never use one myself.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

Doggydoggydoggy i find it interesting you see a halti as cruel but would use an ecollar if you were taught (thats what i took from your lack of skills comment)

[MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig]

You want to be able to let a dog work out for himself what the required response is. Channeling the behaviour and guiding him and then rewarding it. Not waiting until he’s gone wrong or frightening him into doing it. I hate the gun dog training world. Was a part of it myself before I knew any better. Have seen my fair share of big fat brutes throwing their dogs around and whacking them with sticks. Bloody Neanderthals.

[Doggydoggydoggy]

I think there’s a lot of confusion here.

I was basically saying that as far as I know the army and most police forces are not purely positive.
They are positive BASED which means corrections are still involved.

By correction though obviously not beating, pulling ears and alpha rolling which are all abusive.

I don’t know of anyone (personally) in the security dog sector who is not a balanced trainer utilising prongs, e collars and praise and correction.

With the biting, first of all protection work (as I understand it) is done with the dog in one of two emotional states.

• prey drive where the dog is happy, excited.
  
• Defence drive where the dog feels threatened and is aggressing to protect itself.
  

What I was trying to say is that the behaviour of biting is taught positively as a game but if the dog is not carefully trained to understand that in no circumstances do you release the grip unless prompted, then when faced with a scary situation where the game isn’t fun anymore and they feel threatened they will release the bite and flee.

This is fine for a sports dog.
It is not fine for a real life security/army/police dog.

IPO, KNPV, Shutzhund and the like are all fun sports, so there’s no real need to train in ‘defence drive’ because the dog will never be in danger.

The individuals I know of who train ‘real life’ personal protection work train as a game (prey drive) but when the dog is emotionally mature enough the idea that the decoy is not a playmate but the enemy who does pose a threat to you is gradually introduced, gradually the idea of threat and intimidation is introduced and the dog is taught that the only way to relieve the pressure of the scary man who is threatening for real is to maintain the bite and not flee.

In that sort of training the dog is working in defence drive.

It is impossible to train that positively because it involves making the dog feel uncomfortable.

It is not an exaggeration to say I have tried pretty much everything for my dog.

She has a harness, she had a head collar, she had a double ended lead, she is clicker trained, I have utilised treats, I have counter conditioned, honest to god I have really tried with this dog.
Years of positive training, no one can say I have not tried with that dog.

Head collars work by torsion which is really painful, in order to use them lengthy training to desensitise is required else the dog will go absolutely nuts trying to scrape it off, even properly fitted they can rub and irritate the eyes and nose.
I have no hesitation in calling them cruel.

The only things I have never used on my dog is a choke chain ( because there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest they are extremely dangerous and cause long term neck and spinal damage even when properly used) and an e collar because I don’t feel anywhere near skilled enough to use one properly.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

Adversive, that was the word, thank you. I remember being intrigued by it all when i got my reactive dog after a few choice words to those who recommended ecollsrs & choke chains

[Detoxpup]

I did used Pavlo as an example of classical conditioning Miss Battenburg maybe clumsily but that was the point I was making.

Head collars can be see as adversives eg they stop the dog from doing something eg pulling ahead. Canny collars tend to pull the dogs head down towards the dog chest so that they can not pull forward.

DoggydoggyDogy I do not understand the point you are making about the police dog - if a behaviour is trained the dog will do the trained behaviour - if you can train the behaviour positively as you yourself say you would be a knob not to.

Interesting you hate head collars (it may help you to help you dog if used correctly with a double ended lead and a harness)

[Pissedoffdotcom]

Canny collar is a collar that also has a halti attached to it for over the dog's nose.
Personally i prefer haltis to choke chains. Altho with some idiots even a collar is something they cannot manage properly

[Doggydoggydoggy]

Canny collar is a head collar.

[Wolfiefan]

I don’t know what a canny collar is.
I use a dogmatic. For the safety of my dog and me too. She is bloody huge and I need to have close control at all times. She doesn’t pull on it at all and walks on a loose lead.

[Doggydoggydoggy]

Yes I am one of those people, I despise head collars!

And yes, your friend is a knob.

[Spudlet]

Gundogs do need a high level of obedience, but it's perfectly possible to attain that without force. A sharp 'no' has generally worked for mine (well, a big old bellowed no a couple of times, but that was to stop the wee bugger running off after a deer!). And of course, lots of praise when he did stop his chase and come back! Gundog breeds are so biddable, they just want to do their jobs.

For running in on the dummy, you could be a twat like your friend and go straight into hurting your dog. Or you could engage your brain and work out how to break the exercise down to allow your dog to succeed, and work on the basics of obedience separately. For example, place the dummy on the floor a short distance away, removing he exciting element of the dummy being thrown - maybe with a helper holding the dog for backup. Then praise the dog for waiting patiently before sending them. It's not hard to think out, but some people lack the initiative to do things differently and can't help but go straight for force over brainpower. Their poor dogs.

[Pissedoffdotcom]

Interestingly, guide dogs are often trained using canny collars - these are seen as negative to many people.

I guess it is open to interpretation based on experience. Your 'friend' however OP is a knob.

[startingafresh1]

Thanks for the interesting input. My comment re security, police , army and guide dogs using only positive reward based training comes from what I was told by our gun dog trainer. I may be misinformed, haven't checked my facts.

It's a fascinating subject.

Now looking forward to getting home and collecting my happy, eager to please boy.

[missbattenburg]

Detoxpup - I think in my keenness to debate my repsonse to you may have come across as rude. Apologies, I defo did not mean it it. I just don't often get a chance to talk this over in my 'real' life