Do you think this unethical practice? And is there anything I can do?

[EveryLittleThing]

Ok - am prepared for "I told you so" but hope that you won't as what I need right now is help

I posted on here recently asking advice on choosing a cockapoo. I explained that I had put a deposit on a planned litter (show cocker mum) but was then offered the chance of a puppy from a litter (working cocker mum) just born that had one extra puppy in it. The deal was that I was offered the chance to visit the puppy and if it didn't suit I would remain on the list that I had paid the deposit on.

Well, having considered all the helpful advice that I had received on the thread, I thought perhaps I should take more time to consider my options. Especially as we have had some family circumstances arise which I have found rather stressful and I didn't want to make such an important decision whilst I feel unable to think clearly. So I emailed the breeder and explained that we were not in a position to continue at the present time and could she return the deposit.

She has refused telling me that she had turned away good families and that she would now have to go to the trouble of re-opening the list.

My issues are as follows:

A) I asked breeder to email me T&C at the time of deposit - she didn’t
B) I dont recall her at any point telling me the deposit was non-refundable
C) the deposit I gave was for the next litter - not the current one - as far as I am aware at the time of the deposit the list for that planned litter had not even been opened.
D) our deposit was not transferred to the first list as she suggests - She told us explicitly that we would remain on the 2nd bitch’s list and just have the option of a pup from the first litter - i.e. we were merely offered a chance to have a puppy sooner if we wanted one.
E) given that we were on the second list, which has barely been opened, the deposit should be fully refundable as she would NOT yet have had to turn anyone away - the bitch isn’t even in season yet for heaven's sake, let alone pregnant.
F) surely this goes against best practice for breeders - I don't think she should even have taken a deposit until she had at least confirmed a pregnancy.

I spoke to a KC breeder about another breed that was recommended to me from a poster on my last thread - she said she never takes a deposit until her puppies have reached the ground.

I feel really let down. I know I shouldn't have ever given her a deposit in the first place, but is there anything I can do or have I lost my deposit?

and

[EveryLittleThing]

Hi all - so sorry have had a very difficult day today - will read through and get back to you all tomorrow - off to try and sleep now. [tired face]

[Shriek]

yes drunken - reputable stud cares about where progeny come from and will forward enquiries; as will owner /breeder of bitch vet potential new owners and be there for backup/advice for the benefit of the precious dpup.

[DrunkenUnicorn]

But I doubt you get that level of help with your average byb stud dog...

[DrunkenUnicorn]

The 'service' being the ahem 'act' plus all advice beforehand, eg when to bring her, care in pregnancy, etc up until puppies leave, forwarding any enquired if people looking for puppies from their dog.

[Shriek]

... but from having read further up it seems this breeder is using dodgy practices? x-breeding dpups do not have registered KC pedigree's and cannot belong to a registered breed club.

x-breeding is completely unregulated and as far as i'm aware, most importantly, have no standard health checking requirements which is bad for ddogs and those spending hard earned dosh on buying them. What massive profits they must make if they are not even doing health checks, and yet charging really high prices, plus taking such high deposits

[Shriek]

same here for stud fees, vets bills for bitches/any dpups, FOOD! I am not aware of service for dpups, unless breeder after a pick of litter dpup for themselves in return, mostly its just pay the fee regardless of success but mainly get a return visit free if unsuccessful this time round. Healthy bitches timed right should conceive.

Sorry if i went overboard on the 'despicable' front! there are many with their hearts in the animals place, but there are those notsomuch and its such a worry how the punter can possibly work out the difference in many cases.

[DrunkenUnicorn]

Wannabe, surely in that circumstance prospective owners get deposit back- as breeder unable to supply a puppy. The deal usually is- purchaser changes mind and doesn't want available puppy, (or in this case potential available puppy) they lose deposit, if the breeder can no longer supply a puppy then they give it back. That's always been my experience anyway.

Maybe I didn't make my post very clear!! No one had paid deposits on puppies in the example I gave. It was the breeder who lost the stud fee of 500 (plus all the other considerable expenses). It's different in different breeds, but in my breed you pay for a stud SERVICE not puppies, so if your birch doesn't take, or loses the puppies you usually get a free return (one more 'go' as it were) but that's it. That's the agreement and it is what it is. Sorry I didn't mean to confuse anyone!

[BooAvenue]

Well obviously if the families didn't get a puppy for whatever reason I would give the deposit back bit of a no brainier really.

[wannaBe]

Yes, taking non refundable deposits up front for puppies that have not even been conceived yet is despicable practice. It just makes breeding a non risk exercise then doesn't it?


So, breeder is hoping to breed say, her Labrador. There may be up to ten puppies, so she takes a non refundable deposit of £250 from ten people, now she has £2500 to cover her costs. The dog is mated and something goes wrong and the puppies are stillborn or even the pregnancy doesn't take and she loses her £500 stud fee (as mentioned above) She will have insurance for vets fees at this stage so those are not a factor. So even given there are no puppies the non refundable deposit means she is still £2000 up. Win win for the breeder I'd say.

[Shriek]

i definitely disagree with taking and keeping deposits where no dpup is then offered!!!

this is completely bad practice. This is the breeders' risk. It is not down to potential dpup owners to pay stud fees and cover costs of this breeding risk. I think thats dispicable practice.

Poor potential owners to have paid for the breeders business costs. Money makers.

[Shriek]

only just seen your reply to me, and question about term of deposit

I think you paid to reserve a dpup, that was the original verbal agreement from what you say, so that stands. If this bitch does not successfully breed to the sire planned (that your deposit is for), and she cannot therefore supply you with the dpup you get your money back.

I still suspect that as she has said that 'bitch is not in season' yet, do you know the intended bitch? Have you been to see these ddogs? met the breeder and can identify the bitch that was 'due in season' - i think that because she has offered you another it is likely that this bitch was in season and mating was unsuccessful and this is a load of cock & bull, but only you can know that from the dates she gave you and meeting the dam/sire of the potential litter.

If this is the case you are due your deposit, but you will have to gather your evidence so you can prove this to be the case, the season dates/proposed mating/sire/expected dpup arrival dates etc.

You might ask around of other breeders that know this breeder and discover it is all above board and she's good to her word, which means if she offers you a pup from the promised litter you can either pay the balance or lose your deposit. If promised litter doesn't materialise you have your deposit returned.

[MidniteScribbler]

yes, she is a member of the breed club and I have approached them - no response as yet

If she is a member of the cocker breed club and breeding cross-bred dogs, I suspect she won't be a member for much longer. Every breed club I know it is against the COE to cross-breed. No point in having a pedigree dog register if you're letting them mate with any old mutt in order to churn out puppies for profit.

[needastrongone]

In fairness, I think the OP sounds like a responsible, decent person who has had her eyes opened somewhat here. I trust folk too and try to think the best of them, rightly or wrongly.

So cross with this damn designer bloody dogs thing

[BooAvenue]

Well really, what did you expect when you decided to buy from a 'breeder' like that?

I think you'll just have to suck it up and take it as a lesson learned.

I don't think what the breeder was doing in taking a deposit was particularly unusual.

When I used to breed working line dogs I would take a deposit from people before the bitch was even pregnant. Why? Because it takes a fucking long time to suss out if it's a properly decent home which I'd be happy to sell a pup to. Also because after the puppies are born if someone drops out then 8 weeks is not that long to find a committed and decent replacement owner for a puppy. I wasn't particularly up for doing home visits when looking after a large litter. Also, I didn't want people in or out all the time to "have a look" when they were born or stressing mum out when she was pregnant, much better to have it all set up before the pregnancy, then the families will come on a given day at the 4 week point to chose their pup (first to deposit gets first choice) and then again at 9 weeks to collect. I would hold a deposit for the next if the people who chose last didn't get the choice of their desired colour/sex and then return the deposit if we decided not to go for another litter.

[LizzieMacQueen]

Show cocker. We have 2 now and they are brilliant dogs.

Shameless picture attached.

[DrunkenUnicorn]

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think it's a case of a naive purchaser being taken advantage of.

I know of a friend who recently lost a litter due to a complication and had to spay the bitch for health reasons. She lost her £500 stud fee. The agreement in our breed is free return to stud dog to try again if no puppies- no refunds, as you're paying for a stud service not puppies... That was a kicker but no ill feeling, that was the agreement. I think this is similar.

[DrunkenUnicorn]

I kinda see where lougle is coming from....

The fact that you agreed to pay a deposit on puppies that were not on the ground yet is neither here nor there in terms of a deposit that is there to deter time wasters/people letting her down. You've changed your mind and pulled out..

Maybe it was foolish to agree to put a deposit down when the bitch was not mated yet but you willingly agreed. Maybe she has taken advantage, but I can't see that she's in the wrong- she agreed to provide you with a puppy from an upcoming litter, she can still do so, in my experience deposit goes back if she can't keep her end of the bargain.

Lots of breeders ask for a deposit up front so they know they definitely have homes lined up, others refuse to take a desposit until they've met you and are happy with you taking one of their babies, so they can easily back out if they feel it necessary. Neither is 'wrong', just personal preference and you can see pros and cons for both.

[tomatodizzy]

I can see your concerns with rescue. All the dogs usually have a history and the centres are really good at matching people with the right dog and that can take a lot of time. Also have you considered fostering? We fostered our mini Pinscher, we were told she was not an ideal dog for children, other dogs, cats and chickens but we ended up keeping her because she fitted right in and is a lovely little dog.

[wannaBe]

Tbh I would never take on a rescue either but there is no right or wrong on that one.

I would definitely look into small claims, or even just threaten it, she may back down then, especially if she thinks her reputation is at steak.

If you are not successful though I would consider it a lucky escape, worst case scenario you could have ended up with a puppy farmed puppy with all manner of health issues.

I adore cocker spaniels and have always wanted one. Not able to have one though

[needastrongone]

And if you do go for a pedigree puppy, they usually cost less than the 'oodles' do anyway! You might not lose overall.

[needastrongone]

Hi Every. I posted on your other thread. I am really sorry it's turned out this way. I am no lawyer, but you are right, the moral thing to do would be to return the money. I would. She's hardly a 'hobby' breeder is she? Doing it for the love, if she won't return your money.

I would definitely contact the breed club and update them. No T&C's and no 'non refundable deposit' specification.

I might also be tempted to reconcile myself to losing the £250 by considering the long term. You have, quite rightly, put a lot of time and effort into thinking about this. Your dog will be with you for 10 plus years. Divide the £250 by 10 years, and it might be easier to palate?

I am really sorry it's ended this way. It's probably why so many threads get strong views expressed on this subject. There's so much opportunity for money making at the expense of a living thing.

You will get the right dog, and you will enjoy that dog for life. I have no doubt you will be super owners.

Still going to tell you to get a working cocker though

[EveryLittleThing]

*puppies

[EveryLittleThing]

Booboo and wannbe - thanks very much for your comments - really helpful. I will look into rescue but unless I can have a puppy that I feel confident about I won't be taking any risks! I will also look into small claims. I have heard nothing back from the breeders club as yet which is a bit worrying. May well get in touch with the RSPCA.

lougle we'll just have to agree to disagree. Of course the circumstances are not the same - yes, I have backed out - but not at any cost or inconvenience to the breeder - no puppy have even been conceived so what practical reason does she have to hang on to the deposit. It's pure greed.

Are you a breeder?

[wannaBe]

Actually, I think the thing which would go in the oP's favour legally is the fact that there aren't actually any puppies, or even a certainty of any puppies, and there is no contract which states how soon a litter of puppies is due and when you can therefore expect to take your puppy home.

A deposit can only be made on a product or service (I don't like to talk about living animals that way but ykwim) which can actually be delivered, and upon entering a contract with the payment of the deposit, the other party is obliged to give the buyer a reassurance of the delivery of the product or service.

This is different to paying a non refundable deposit on a litter which has already been born and where numbers of pups are known. The breeder would only take a deposit from the number of people who were going to have puppies. The fact that she is taking deposits before the litter has even been conceived means that she is in fact obtaining money by deception as there are no certainties. Alternative it is proof that she is running a puppy farm, if she is prepared to breed as many pups as she needs to to fill her orders.

OP I would go to small claims court without hesitation. Just because some breeders do things a certain way doesn't mean that this one will get away with it. I would also contact the RSPCA and report the breeder as a potential puppy farm....

[lougle]

Well to be fair, the circumstances are pretty much the same circumstances anyone would back out in. You've changed your mind. I really don't think the seller is being obstinate for refusing to refund the deposit.