Goldendoodle Buyer beware

[Tillypaws]

We have the most heartbreaking story to tell about our new puppy. Being a cautious person and a huge animal lover I thought I had done my research well regarding breeders of Minature Goldendoodles. I had my name down with 3 of the most highly recommended breeders . However none of these where personal recommendations. Lesson learnt.
My 2 children fell in love with her the moment they saw her as did we but it became clear within the first 48 hours that there was some thing not right with her. We took her to the vet immediately for a full health check. We had another 3 visits to the vet and 2 dog behaviour experts saw her over the next 2 days . We were desperate . We were being told by all the professionals that she was showing anti social behaviour ( fear aggression) and that we should return her immediately to the "hobby" breeder. I have never known my children cry so much. To make matters worse the breeder accused us of mistreating her . She has advertised her for sale again !! Please beware this adorable looking puppy is not well. She needs a quiet home with no children and plenty of socialising lessons. I have had rescue dogs in the past and know that this kind of behaviour is disastrous around children. We now have the most gorgeous little lady who settled in within days . My children will never forget the heart break in saying goodbye to our puppy but our new pup is helping heal the broken hearts.

I do listen to the arguments, and I never hear anything that makes sense to me. Until someone seriously overhauls the KC then I cannot see that 'designer' dogs are the big issue, as the KC are a million times worse. If I told you I had a pedigree labrador then no one would bat am eyelid, despite the fact that said labrador could come from a puppy farm and have KC papers- but you'd assume the best because it is a labrador. Just as you automatically assume the worst when I say labradoodle.

I got a hybrid because I love poodles and labradors, and cross breeds are usually more healthy, which is why they are cheaper to insure. I also worked for a few years in a veterinary hospital and encountered a huge variety of breeds and I never encountered a bad natured labradoodle.

I disagree, there are some very responsible labradoodle breeders. There are also very bad ones, but as I have said, that goes for all breeds and is not exclusive to designer 'breeds.' In my opinion, the 'breed' of the dog is irrelevant.

Let's not pretend that most pedigree breeders aren't doing it for profit, of course they are! Okay, so I do agree that designer dog breeders can only be doing it for profit amd nothing else, but this is no different to most pedigree breeders.

I think that rather than villainising people for buying into the designer dog craze, we should focus our energies on ensuring that there are NO unscrupulous breeders and that everyone breeds to specific rules and standards. That is the real issue here, not the breed of dog, because there is no denying the fact that my labradoodle is much much healthier than ANY KC registered pug/shar pei etc.

I will just say though, (before I fall asleep on the sofa!) that while I don't agree with you all, you have provided the most convincing argument that I have yet heard on this subject! (And I do find myself embroiled in this topic fairly frequently!)

Bunny, you've mentioned that the breeder of your doodle had KC registered poodle and lab parents. One of the few things that the KC does right is that for the welfare of breeding bitches, a bitch can't have more than one litter a year registered and there is an upper limit on the total number of litters registered.

What breeders do (and this sounds likely in your case) is that they breed the appropriate number of KC registered litters and then they squeeze out a few doodle litters from the parents, and the breeder can say with perfect sincerity to the mugs customers - "Of course, even though the parents are KC registered, I can't register this litter." Meanwhile the poor bitch is a knackered breeding machine.

And like everyone else, I agree that nobody breeds doodles for a hobby. They do it for the money.

Actually in real life if I know someone is getting a Labrador the first thing I ask is if they've seen the hip and elbow scores and the eye test results.

I'm equally annoying without prejudice, lol.

Insurance companies might believe that crosses are healthier, scientific studies don't agree.

Unfortunately finding a good breeder is a complete gamble at all, but, finding one for crossbreed dogs does stack the odds against it further just because so many people do it and don't health test, they say things about hybrid vigour instead and it sounds plausible, so they get away with it.

scuttle Why does it sound likely that my breeder is treating her bitches like breeding machines? She isn't! I know for a fact that her bitches have one litter every other year...hardly a breeding machine!

Tabula I am glad that you are not prejudiced and ask the same questions to people buying labradors!

easterbunny my point was that if the breeder is just in it for the profit they probably aren't concerned about paying for health tests. Sadly we can't prove that with either pedigrees or mongrels.

It sounds likely because doodle breeders do not usually bother with the health checks so its likely they have the health checks on the dogs because they also breed pedigree litters from them . BTW nobody has said your dog is 'worth less' than a pedigree . I have a Patterdale x ,he cost me £95 from Battersea as a pup 4 yrs ago and he's priceless ( to me) .

That is true to a point, but it isn't an issue which is exclusive to hybrids.

The more popular a breed is, the more people breed who really shouldn't and don't bother about doing it well - and labs are popular.

It's very similar to the issue with labradoodles or other crosses, there's a market for them and people see pound signs.

If someone already has a dog of any breed or any cross, I wouldn't say anything other than oh they're lovely, because most dogs are and I don't think most labradoodle owners are any stupider than someone who paid money to any bad breeder.

But if someone's still at the buying stage, yep I'm irritating, lol, but health tests are important and not just because of the financial cost.

Floral Ah I see, though I doubt that is the case with my breeder as she breeds so few litters. I do genuinely just think she is interested in the health of the dogs.

Someone upthread seemed shocked that a goldendoodle costs the same as her pedigree golden retriever, that's where I was getting the 'worth' issue from. Plus the fact that it has been said to me so many times before!

The thing is if people are paying for a pedigree that's what they pay the premium for ,I got a x breed for £95 you got a x breed for £700 , if its what you wanted and you are happy then that's all that matters to you. Personally I would struggle to justify spending £700 on any dog but I definitely wouldn't spend it on a x breed .

I don't think you pay for a pedigree...or at least I wouldn't, current dog is KC registered, the only one I've ever owned that was or could have been, he's also the only one I've bought as opposed to adopted and paid a fee for.

I was paying for the fact that his parents were health tested and well looked after and that his breeder was someone I was happy to give money to, it makes no odds to me whether someone pays that money for a pedigree or a cross, it's whether it was done as ethically as possible that I think the money is for. Though it was less than £700, lol.

Can I just say that I work for a large university veterinary hospital and the number of broken designer breeds we see is crazy. They are everywhere. I have always had proper mutts with very few health problems. All this crossbreeding is not producing healthy dogs. It staggers me that people pay so much for a crossbreed. The dog breeding situation in this country is nuts and I don't like to think that people are stupid but they are certainly very naive.

Sorry to jump on this thread for selfish reasons, but VetNurse (or anyone else with crossbreeds), where do you get your lovely healthy mutts? I am absolutely not interested in a designer breed. Might get a pedigree but am seriously considering a mutt. But how do you know that the person you get your mutt from is any less unscrupulous than one of these designer breeders? Thanks.

I don't think there is anyway to guarantee a healthy mutt ,you just minimise the risks .

Yet people say that designer dogs are just overpriced 'mutts'...so surely that is a contradiction? So you can either have a healthy pedigree (!) or a 'proper' mutt, but if you cross two healthy pedigrees then you create a monster...what exactly is it about the 'designer' dogs which makes them so terribly unhealthy?!

Vetnurse- I am assuming that as you work in the veterinary industry, you also see an overwhelmingly large number of broken pedigrees? (I certainly did when I worked in the industry) The purpose of your job is to see broken dogs, you are very unlikely to see fit and healthy labradoodles are you?!

If crossbreeding isn't creating healthy dogs, then neither is breeding pedigrees, because a crossbreed is just a cross of two pedigree breeds, so really the issue stems from breeding pedigrees.

It may stagger you that people pay so much for a crossbreed, but why is this any worse than paying a fortune for a pedigree?

I agree, the dog breeding situation in this country IS nuts, but THAT is the problem, not the actual breeds. Breeders themselves need strict legislation in place to protect the dogs they are breeding.

Yes I work in a referral hospital and see a lot of pedigree dogs. But what I am getting at is that people seem to think that these designer breeds are healthier and so chose them over a pedigree. This is not always the case. We see a lot of joint problems in labradoodles and have done quite a few hip replacements. Yes you may get one from a breeder who has done health tests but why is this breeder breeding them in the first place? To make money. There is no other reason. If you were really anti breeding them you would get a rescue crossbreed and not be encouraging any breeding at all. The KC is a load of rubbish but they are slowly trying to change things. If designer crossbreeds continue to be bred the way they are then they are not regulated at all and so is not going to help the situation. As for the matter of paying more for a crossbreed than a pedigree, when you buy a well bred pedigree dog you know exactly what you are getting. With a crossbreed you don't. Labradoodles come in all shapes and sizes and coat type. If you want a poodle type dog then just get a poodle. Absolutely brilliant dogs and one of my favourite breeds.

Exactly therealeasterbunny. That's what I didn't understand - why a 'designer' crossbreed should be any unhealthier than any other crossbreed just because the price is higher.

Sorry to jump on this thread for selfish reasons, but VetNurse (or anyone else with crossbreeds, where do you get your lovely healthy mutts?

holmessweetholmes, I have a springer/collie/something else cross. She is perfectly healthy, the size of a springer, fit, active and excellent with kids. She has some seperation anxiety, and can be nervy around new people but is a wonderful mutt. Many Tears gave us support in the first year regarding her Sep Anx (recommendations and advice, not monetary) and at any time if she 'didn't work out' then they would have taken her back.

I got her from Many Tears Animal Rescue nearly 5 years ago when she was approx 8 weeks old.

I have also had a Rescue Rottie from a local kennel in Oxfordshire, but unfortunately she developed Bone Cancer when she was 4 years old and had to be PTS, she could not be helped any further.

My friend has one rescue oddity from Ardley Kennels - he is a Retriever crossed with God Knows. Possibly Greyhound or Lurcher, but there seems to be some German Shep in there as well. He is enormous! Lovely temperament, very fit, needs a lot of walking and is wonderful with cats/rabbits/small furries which goes against his possible Greyhound Prey Drive.

She has another rescue Lurcher/Belgian Shep/Something Else that has Hip Displaysia and stomach issues - he came from Evesham Lurcher Rescue but all his siblings (5) have no issues at all, friend was just 'unlucky'

Another friend has a Nowzad dog rescued from Afghanistan that is mainly German Shep, and yet another friend has a collie/cocker/something rescued from BARC in Cyprus.

What I am trying to say really is that if you approach a Rescue, especially a well established one, they will be able to 'match' you with a dog suitable to your needs. I wouldn't go there with a specific dog in mind, just a list of your 'requirements' - ie Approx grown size, whether you want a puppy or older dog, good with kids, short haired for less grooming etc.

All you really can be sure of is that if you get your dog from a Rescue rather than a Breeder then you are 'buying' (donating to) from someone who cares about dogs, not cash. Any dog, mutt/crossbreed/pedigree can have issues, paying for it doesn't guarantee health, so why perpetuate the disgusting and dangerous dog breeding situation in the UK by forking out your hard earned cash to someone pimping out their bitches' uterus with pound signs in their eyes?

But you don't always know what you are getting with a pedigree. The breeder says they are KC registered, people think that means something amazing, so they pay 800 for a labrador which may well be much more unhealthy than a labradoodle. I do see what you are saying, that 'designer' dog breeders are not regulated at all, but until the KC regulations are actually remotely worth something (i.e- strict guidelines, and vetted breeders) then they really mean nothing.

With regards to money, in my opinion all dogs should cost the same, pedigree or not. Though this could only happen if all breeders regardless of breed were subjected to the same stringent rules regarding breeding. Pedigree breeders are also slapping extortionate price tags on their dogs because they think they are selling something special. Okay, in some cases they are and it is justified, if they have done everything properly and are selling top quality puppies, but i'd rather pay 800 for my healthy labradoodle than 800 for an unhealthy labrador. (Or in my case, i'd rather pay 800 for a labradoodle again than another 350 for my hugely unhealthy cairn terrier, who has cost over 4000 this year so far in veterinary bills...thank god for insurance!)

Yes people do rightly or wrongly believe that they are healthier. I think that surely has to depend on the parent dogs though doesn't it, which is the case for any puppy. My labradoodle, a direct result of crossing a healthy lab and a poodle has got to be more healthy than a pug or a shar pei, or in fact a labrador bred from two unhealthy (but probably KC registered!) parent labradors? But then again a pedigree pug or shar pei is probably more healthy than a pugpei (or whatever people call a pug crossed with a shar pei!) It has to come down to the parent dogs and the breeder surely?

No, there is no other reason for 'designer' dog breeders to breed other than to make money, but I think it is unreasonable to suggest that this isn't why the vast majority of breeders of ANY dog breed! Money has got to be the catalyst in most cases surely?

I agree, poodles are brilliant dogs, but so is my labradoodle, honestly!!

Lteve- You do make a very good point. Really everyone should rescue dogs. FWIW, I have rescued in the past, so I am not all bad!

I am really coming round to the idea of a rescue dog. Thanks for the responses. LtEveDallas - I love the sound of your springer/collie/something else! I met a gorgeous springer yesterday...

But you don't always know what you are getting with a pedigree. The breeder says they are KC registered, people think that means something amazing, so they pay �800 for a labrador which may well be much more unhealthy than a labradoodle

I think it is snobbery in a lot of cases. Some people want to be able to say "Oh he's a pedigree, his father won crufts/has a 50 year lineage/has produced show winners" whether or not they intend to 'show' the dog - which is ridiculous.

I understand people that buy pedigrees for specific reasons - I have a friend that is into the whole 'hunting/shooting/fishing gig. He has 4 Springer Spaniels, 2 Cocker Spaniels, a Labrador and a mutt. Spaniels and Labs are the 'best' dogs for his specific needs. However 4 of his dogs were Rescue and have proved to be just as good as the 'purchased' dogs. He has said that he will not use a breeder again as it was a 'waste of money'.

My Aunt had 2 labradors. She made quite a fuss about their Pedigree and Lineage. They have 'Pedigree' (ridiculous) names and 'regular' names. She is quick to call them by their 'Pedigree' names when in new company (not that they come), but when you look at them they are classically daft, greedy and overweight labs. There is nothing special about them, other than their papers. Unless you are going to staple their papers to their heads, who is going to know?

holmessweetholmes, I think there is a photo of the Mutt on my profile, if you click on my username you should be able to call them up (she was one of the first photos I uploaded, so would be near the bottom)