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May I ask a question about dog showing (Crufts etc) endangered breeds and irresponsible breeding- pedigree dogs specifically?

34 replies

Slapntickleothewenches · 11/03/2014 11:18

Hopefully non inflammatory :)
I have just read the thread about English bulldogs and was quite amazed at the depth of feeling surrounding it.
I have pedigree dogs, albeit working lines that would no more qualify for breed showing at Crufts than fly to the moon and it's been a while since I bought a "proper" pedigree puppy. So......

  1. The breed judges follow the KC breed standard. Is it simply personal interpretation that has allowed GSDs to get so low, bulldogs and pugs to be unable to breathe etc? These traits are not specifically in the breed type so is it naive to think that the dogs you see at the top of the game ie- Best in Show, are good examples of breed type? Obvious there's a lot of shit breeding on the way to that pinnacle but taking that out of the equation.
  2. Endangered breeds such as the bulldog. Is it ethical to allow the breed to become extinct? The general concensus on the thread was that purchasing an EB puppy was an unethical decision. If that is so then do we just accept that the breed dies out, or worse continues in the hands of unscrupulous breeders?


I'm genuinely interested in a rational discussion, not a lecture on the morals of buying pedigree puppies or suggestions for rescue dogs as I may lose my final shred of sanity if we had another dog
:)
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moosemama · 12/03/2014 14:35

You're right Scuttle, it isn't always the KC that's in the wrong. There can be really militant factions of some breeds that refuse to accept they should be choosing health/welfare of their dogs above all else. I do think that the KC could address that by not making it so easy for those individuals to register their progeny.

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Scuttlebutter · 12/03/2014 14:09

One of my favourite places for a discussion on many of these issues is the Pedigree Dogs Exposed blog. The author made the documentary a few years back which really kicked this issue into the limelight. Since then, she's been reporting on how the KC, show judges and the Breed Societies have been addressing issues of extreme confirmation and health issues. It's a fascinating read as there are considerable differences between the approaches taken by different breeds, and of course the genetics is also making amazing progress, allowing more detailed testing. What's also interesting is that in some cases the KC is not the villain of the piece, but is having to work with Breed Societies and judges that are to put it mildly reluctant to change.

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moosemama · 12/03/2014 13:41

I'm afraid I think the assured breeders thing is just another way for the KC to make money, as I've also heard it's not fit for purpose and isn't being inspected and enforced. Unfortunately people are constantly being led to believe it's the only safe way to find a healthy, well bred pup and they are often paying more for these pups, because the breeder has assured status. Obviously that isn't the case for all assured breeders, but with no rigorous control and inspection scheme in place it's open to abuse by less scrupulous breeders.

The KC is a cash rich organisation that sells it's purpose as:

"We are the UK’s largest organisation dedicated to protecting and promoting the health and welfare of all dogs." www.thekennelclub.org.uk/

In my opinion they don't do much or at least not enough to ensure the health and welfare of pedigree breeds.

I do believe there are some schemes cropping up here and there to try and resolve health issues in certain breeds, but as I understand it, the impetus has come from the breed organisations, rather than the KC.

One of the biggest things they could do to improve the health and welfare of 'all dogs' is to stop registering any litters from breeders who cannot provide current and relevant evidence of health checks for every single dog they breed from and their litters. This would eliminate KC registered, pedigree pups being sold by backyard breeders, puppy farms and anyone else more into breeding for the money, than love and dedication to their breed. It would probably have a side effect of making KC registered dogs more expensive, but that could be a good thing, judging by the numbers of poorly bred registered dogs that are ending up in rescue every year.

Enforcement of rigid health and genetic testing would go a long way to helping eliminate a lot of the health problems, but on it's own wouldn't go far enough. It would need to also enforce that any dog that does not meet the required health standards on tests could not have their progeny registered or be shown on the KC circuit. They should also refuse to allow progeny of dogs with known dominant genetic issues to be registered and not allow registration of pups bred from a bitch and dog combination that would produce strong likelihood of producing pups with inherited problems. The guy on the TV said the DNA testing company is already doing risk assessments for HD, I presume similar risk can be calculated for other genetic conditions?

I read upthread about one scheme stating dogs having to have health checks before going in the ring, but I think it should go further and state that all dogs have to have passed the relevant health checks for their breed in order to be shown and exhibited as a prime example of type.

As for the EB. I have seen some stuff about a handful of breeders that have been working hard in the background for tens of years now to breed a type that can give birth naturally and has a much longer muzzle. The dogs they produce are fitter, healthier and look very much like the old drawings of how EBs used to look in years gone by - although I believe some lines still have issues such as entropion that need addressing. The problem has been, in order to rectify the extreme conformation issues they have had to outcross to other breeds and this had meant other people in the EB breed will not accept them as true EBs. So, you then have a choice about whether or not to allow a breed to die out in preference to creating a 'modern version' of the breed that is identified in some way though a slightly different name or something (as with Olde Englishe Bulldogges). The final choice is to do nothing and allow the dogs to continue suffering at the very least while breeders very slowly select for conformation that will, eventually, a very long time into the future lead to healthier dogs.

Whatever the answer is, it's going to take a lot of money and commitment from the KC and there simply is no quick fix. It's taken a hundred years or so to get our poor dogs into this mess and it's going to take at least that long, if not longer - even with strict measures in place - to undo it.

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Slapntickleothewenches · 12/03/2014 08:00

I think it's Germany where dogs are registered in two "tiers", those that hold a working title and those that don't. This has allowed strong lines of traditional working breeds and shows the breeders with little regard for a breeds heritage.

If you consider our working cockers, racing greyhounds and to a certain extent working labs too, there are little if any genetic health issues. Undoubtedly there are some unscrupulous breeders about but in the main they breed for physical soundness and working ability, no point in breeding an animal that cannot do the job you bred it for. I'm not sure how this could be implemented but perhaps even a medical assessment of both parents before breeding to determine whether the puppies can be formally registered?

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bochead · 11/03/2014 21:58

I've wanted a GSD since I was a kiddy in the 1970's.

Later this year I'll finally be in a position to own one - wtf have they done to them in the interim?

Health problems now rife in the breed and they don't even LOOK like GSD's any more!

They used to be beautiful, working animals - now so many are just not fit for purpose. I'm so disappointed - going abroad to get a fairly traditional breed like this seems wrong on so many levels.


Changes I'd like to see:-

1/ Health should be a basic pre-requisite for entry to the show ring. e.g no dog with a high hip score should be permitted entry at a pedigree show. The same should be done for ALL genetic diseases.

2/ Pups from litters of untested parents should be banned from KC Reg.

3/ Once a breed hits over 50% prevalence with a major health condition it should be removed from the KC breed list, and declared extinct as a pedigree breed. This would provide a further incentive for breeders to bred healthy animals.

4/ New breeds should only be allowed to be added to the pedigree breed list if it can proven that they are not known to carry any serious genetic flaws.

I imagine the last two points would bring first utter outrage and then a couple of decades of true breed enthusiasts working their butts off quietly to bring back "extinct" breeds in a healthy format to the pedigree KC breed list.

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LadyTurmoil · 11/03/2014 20:45

Re. the poodle bouffant, it's just that other dogs like the Spanish or Portuguese Water dogs show with just a short clip, so why can't the poodle have the same understated clip.

On Crufts, they said the reason for the shaved back legs and bobbly bits was to give buoyancy in the water etc but far too exaggerated now.

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Floralnomad · 11/03/2014 18:54

Nothing to do with this thread but that poodle was a deserved winner and was gorgeous despite the silly haircut . The American cocker spaniel on the other hand was a ridiculous looking dog not helped by the way they are shown with their heads yanked up so high ,it's just so unnatural .

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mrslaughan · 11/03/2014 18:47

in the breed we have, an assured breeder, is not what I would call breeding ethically.......doing the mandatory health tests, but has produced dogs with fatal epilepsy, but still breeding from that line. It is now starting to be investigated, but people think they must be the best because they are an assured breeder., it doesn't seem to mean anything, you need to take that out of the equation, do your research, get to know the breed and breeders.

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mistlethrush · 11/03/2014 16:44

I've met one just like the clipped version - but it was on a wet, muddy day and it was in an all-in-one waterproof romper suit Grin

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tabulahrasa · 11/03/2014 16:38

Oh it was just a general poodles aren't extreme under the hair photo rather than as an answer to your post Owllady Smile

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Owllady · 11/03/2014 16:17

I know what a standard poodle looks like :o I know one that is a therapy dog

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tabulahrasa · 11/03/2014 16:10

Well they say that's the origin of that cut, but I bet it wasn't bouffant like that or with a big fringe, lol.

But it is just hair - underneath you've got something like this. Which I don't have a problem with, it's a fully functional dog, just with fuzz on top.

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Owllady · 11/03/2014 16:08

The poodle looked like Brian may

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Faverolles · 11/03/2014 16:02

Poodles' silly haircuts originated when they were used as retrieving dogs, often in water.
I think the cut was designed to help them float, and shaved bits to help them move through the water. Something like that anyway.
I could never stand poodles because they looked poncey, but I'd quite like to see a working poodle doing the stuff it was originally bred for.

(Sorry, slight derailment there :))

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AlpacaLypse · 11/03/2014 15:52

I'm posting fast as I have to go out - but I've heard a rumour that the Assured Breeder Scheme is not actually fit for purpose. The inspections and checks are simply not being carried out - or carried out on such a low percentage of the applicants, with such low investigation standards, that obvious puppy farmers are still getting accredited.

Will check in again later.

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LadyTurmoil · 11/03/2014 15:50

Re. the poodle who won, the silly haircut is just a pity as I think it probably puts a lot of people considering poodles as pets, they just don't believe they're more than "poncy" and pampered dogs...

I loved the wire-haired fox terrier, I thought he looked fantastic. The GSD (in previous class not final) still looked wrong and much too low on the back end. It looked as if he had no strength in his hips and legs

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tabulahrasa · 11/03/2014 15:43

"The poodle who won this year- well, you'd feel pretty stupid walking over the fields with it."

Ah but he doesn't look like that walking through the fields, that's just a haircut - there are pictures of him on the owner's website with a much less extreme look.

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musicposy · 11/03/2014 15:23

I do feel that the more ridiculous looking dogs tend to be the ones that win.
The poodle who won this year- well, you'd feel pretty stupid walking over the fields with it. There were lots more "normal" looking dogs in the final - I would have like to see the rottweiler or the wire haired fox terrier or the irish wolfhound win. I liked the samoyed who came second much better. As DH said, you could walk those down the lane and through a bit of mud and not feel like a right twat. I do think the judges send out a message to breeders that dogs need to be more and more extreme.

I love watching the agility, flyball and heelwork at crufts. The dogs are obviously genuinely having a good time. The breed show seems to me a bit like an outdated beauty pageant - time we started doing things differently. I have a very cute mongrel who is a real dog dog - she'd look great up there! Grin If "Happiest Rescue Dog" won best in show then I think we'd really be getting somewhere.

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Slapntickleothewenches · 11/03/2014 14:03

tab I think I may have tracked it down on the KC website.
(I'm on my phone so will paraphrase)

"The rules make it clear that only healthy dogs should win prizes and independent vets are appointed to help ensure this is the case. Every winning dog within the 14 high profile breeds most prone to health conditions due to exaggerations must have a veterinary examination before going on in the competition"

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Owllady · 11/03/2014 13:30

I think the Sammy needed the background music as "because I'm happppyyyy" :)

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basildonbond · 11/03/2014 13:13

it is amazing how much some dog breeds have changed over the years - I was at the Tate at the weekend and saw Hogarth's self-portrait with pug

no squished face (and presumably no problems breathing) and much bigger than modern pugs...

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tabulahrasa · 11/03/2014 13:01

Ah right...it's fine, I believe you.

I wonder though how stringent anything like that can be, when for instance the pekingese best of breed couldn't even do a lap of the ring without having to stick his tongue out and pant....

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Slapntickleothewenches · 11/03/2014 12:52

The scheme I (maybe!) heard about was more than the standard health schemes tab and was specific to the judging of dogs. I think it specifically mentioned a couple breeds with big "issues" - will have a scout through 4OD and see if I can dredge it up.

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tabulahrasa · 11/03/2014 12:42

There are health schemes for most breeds - most large breeds for instance have issues with hips and elbows, there are schemes to screen for that before breeding, some breeds have hereditary eye or heart problems, again there are already schemes for that.

I don't think that's usually an issue - in that, some of these hereditary problems are more common in certain breeds, but they're not exclusive to them. Joint problems seem to be a size thing rather than specific breeds, eye problems are tested for in loads of breeds, poodles and labs for instance have the same eye issues (which is why labradoodles are problematic).

Good breeders, no matter what they're breeding for should be doing tests for whatever issues are relevant.

KC assured breeders have to, but apart from that, unfortunately it is voluntary.


So, no I don't think with most breeds it is a case of the best of a bad lot, GSDs with sloping backs work, the current crufts best of breed has working titles, I don't particularly care about a particular colour becoming fashionable, like paler retrievers, unless it leads to something more sinister.


But, with breeds with particularly exaggerated features I think it's different, things that affect basic functions like breathing - that's where I think there's an issue. No amount of screening for health problems can fix the fact that by exaggerating flat faces dogs can't breathe or by breeding for wrinkly skin they get eye problems (shar peis for instance are really bad for that).

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Slapntickleothewenches · 11/03/2014 12:16

tab I can see that it is supply and demand. I was really wondering whether it's fairly safe to say that the top dogs truly are demonstrating perfect breed type or whether the judging world has become so skewed that a group winner at Crufts is simply the best of a bad batch IYSWIM? And if it is then what could the KC do to rectify this (I think I heard of a scheme for some breeds with inherent health issues but I only caught the tail end of it)
owllady we have working cockers that are trained to work under the gun. There is little merit in breeding from poor stock when you want a dog that is fit and able to work all day so, in the main our breed is fairly healthy :)
mrsl, it is hard to have a sensible discussion about it
I fully intend to preside over this thread with a big stick and accost any rabble-rousers on their way in :o Wink

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