When to show tough love?

[Sandydune]

Hi - have had a hard time over the last 4 years with my now 18 year old DD. I would love to be able to say something positive about her but I’m really struggling. I could talk for ages about her behaviour over this time, but my question is when to start showing tough love?
For example, she did well in her AS levels last year (A grades) when we were mostly in lockdown and was set for a decent university this year, except that she isn’t working for it. She lowered her university sights to ‘give her less stress this year’ and now she is likely to scrape passes so she wants to go and do a foundation year, again to take the pressure off herself. But it’s not just academic work - she stays out all night, gets verbally abusive (calls me vindictive), demands money from me, threatens suicide if she doesn’t get her own way, and seems incapable of looking after her self - won’t eat our food, won’t cook herself anything, shouts at us for not buying what she ‘likes’, doesn’t brush teeth, sleeps in clothes, goes out in her pyjamas. She has taken her driving test four times and failed because she couldn’t be bothered to organise lesson (even though we’d paid for them in advance) and blames me for not paying for continuous tests until she passes! She also got the sack from her part time job because if a bad attitude.
We’re trying to access medical and psychological help where we can but it’s hard as she’s 18 and has to make those decisions for herself. She clearly needs help and a lot of kids are struggling after the past couple of years.
Having rational conversations to reinforce expectations and boundaries doesn’t help as she won’t engage. However, she’s also very manipulative so even when you think you’ve made a little progress, she’s just ‘used’ us for something she wants.
But do we pay for university even though she’s been so lazy this year? Or do we just kick her out to fend for herself because she needs to learn and us so unpleasant to us? Or should we be trying to keep her at home despite the challenges, because she’s clearly not fit for adult life yet?
Sorry about the ramble - there’s no easy answers but just interested in what people think.

What would doing your duty by her look like?
Do you have fairness to consider wrt what you have done / will do for other DC?

I think I would stop running in circles now. Would you add anything to this menu of options available to her:

• Go to uni, get £x support financially (whatever your plan was)


• Get a job & contribute £y to the family budget, or sign on as unemployed and hand it all over


• Move out as an independent adult and work it out herself

The issue is working out if this is MH or behaviour - what do you think?

Can you afford private MH support e.g. counselling? You could pay for that perhaps. Depends on circumstances.

We are in a very similar situation with our 18yr old son. He just hasn't put the work in, has a terrible attitude and wants to go to uni for the social life ,we are expected to fund this. We try to talk to him but he explodes. We want him to work for a year and earn some money then see if he still wants to go to uni next year. He can't really fund it without us but he's got school involved who don't see what we see and they are trying everything possible to get him there this year, bursary etc. He changed accommodation to one that doesn't need a guarantor because we refused to put ourselves in that situation. People must think we are treating him badly but they don't know the side of him that we do, he barely scrapes by, does the absolute bare minimum. I have huge doubts over him lasting at uni and then being left in debt. Plus we haven't got money to fund this, I will have to work extra and to support him to waste time and money.

I feel for you OP. It's so difficult that they have all these adult rights at 18 but behave so irresponsibly and recklessly. I've been trying to access help for him to speak to someone about him about anger issues etc but if he doesn't want to go there's no point. I don't know if the lockdowns have contributed to this situation but I don't feel my son is ready in any way for uni but I can't do anything about it. Part of me wants him to go so we don't have to live with his behaviour but I'm struggling to do the right thing.

She sounds as though she is struggling with her MH and has been for four years.

You are very derisive about her needs/decisions. I buy food my kids like and cook it for them. One of my son's has been through two prolonged periods of very restricted eating and I supported him all the way. I have also got MH support for him so that when he reaches 18, he is in good shape.

Not dressing and brushing her teeth is a self harm issue - she doesn't care about herself, which is so sad.

Do you love her at all? Be honest with yourself because the dysfunction of your relationship with her jumps out from your op.

University in a different city
give her an allowence weekly and when it’s gone there is no more

your dd will not grow up at home

This sounds like ADHD to me, OP: she’s bright but disorganised, struggles with executive function etc. She sounds a bit like me.

Meds would probably be life-changing for her. Waiting lists for assessment are long but you could go private.

Minimalme that’s really unhelpful - the OP and others have talked about trying to access mental health help, I have been trying to support my son’s mental health for 5 years but he absolutely will not engage and there is nothing the professionals can do if they won’t. You are lucky your son was willing to participate, in the same way for example I am lucky that my son has never been a school refuser - and it is luck. With regards to the food - I’ve cooked my foods the son will eat when he has restricted his diet but when he has refused even that he’s had the option to cook his own food - the OP has given her daughter that option too, an 18 year old should be able to make her own food and if she can’t or won’t, it’s a problem, as the post identifies.

Thank you all for your input.
She’s an only child so being fair to siblings isn’t an issue.
I agrée there are underlying MH issues - she’s finally agreed to accept help from GP - in the last couple of months she had been to CAHMS - not particularly willingly - they initially said they thought she might have ADHD but when the Conners Assessment came back, apparently not. I have been trying to get private assessment since September - it was too late as now she is an adult. First private assessment available is September which we have booked.
@Minimalme That’s a good question about loving her and I guess that and the dysfunction must jump out of my post. She tells me I am a hateful, vindictive person who has never loved her and I feel so bad about myself. If you hear something enough you believe it. I try and do everything I can for her which brings me back to my original question - she isn’t thriving by my trying to do everything, so maybe a tougher approach is required. When I say she shouts at us for not buying food she likes, I mean junk food. She lives off McDonalds, Pot Noodles, Energy Drinks. sweets and kicks off if we try and put a wholesome dinner in front of her. Our entire menu is based around things she might have an outside chance of eating - sausages, burgers, fajitas - not exactly healthy but ‘food’ in a recognisable form. And still she doesn’t.
if I try and speak to her about anything she just shouts at me to shut up or worse. She lies and manipulates - for example, she left yesterday at 1.30pm to go out for an hour and a half. She’s still not home at 10.30am the next morning and does not respond to phonecalls or texts. We are assuming she’s with her boyfriend. Initially we used to be frantic when this happened but there’s only so much you can take.
We’ve paid for counselling but she expects everyone to fit around her - if there’s something better she would rather do she cancels. Same with driving lessons.
I work with teenagers, and parents, and I’m ashamed to say I’d have judged a parent too quickly in this situation. Living this myself has given me a totally different perspective.
@reetas and @ThuMuClu I’m so sorry that you’re going through tough times too. It’s such a challenge. Hoping for brighter days ahead.

Op this sounds really hard and imho you don't need other posters doubting your love for your child. Parents who don't give a shit don't tend to start threads about their dcs.

Only you can judge how serious your dd's mh issues are op, but if she is telling you that she wants to take the pressure off and do a foundation course then personally I would support her in that. The pandemic was awful for lots of teens and young adults and it sounds as though she may be depressed and/or anxious and that needs taking seriously. It is disappointing that the first mh appt is only available in September but good that she has agreed to engage with it.

Obviously, if you think her suicide threats are serious, then you may want to pursue an entirely different course of action, and no one on a sm thread can judge more accurately than you the level of mh intervention she requires, but in your shoes I think I would be encouraging her to go to university, with a lot of support from yourself, mainly bc it sounds as though remaining at home is not doing her much good ATM either. And what do you know about her bf? Is he a good influence or not? If the latter, getting away to uni might be a good idea.

Op you don't need to do anything extreme. Tough love isn't required and nor is pandering to her. You need to step back and support her in her choices and just be there for her (which you are already doing!). It's not easy but concentrate on your relationship. Tell your DD that you love her, even though you are despairing of her in that moment and demonstrate your love for her in small practical ways. Don't listen to her words but try and hear the emotion behind them and respond to that. Instead of engaging in battles, ask her what she needs from you right in that moment.

I totally 'get' that you feel badly about yourself because of all the vindictive things she is saying - I have been there - but please do not take her insults personally. She loves you underneath all the drama but, as you know from your work, she needs to cut herself off from you in order to become an independent individual in her own right. And it can be a painful process but it's a natural one. She's probably terrified underneath the bluster.

Many universities have good mh facilities for students that are more readily accessible then those available at home via a gp for example but at the same time, you will need to offer lots of support, make sure you help her settle in, visit often and take her out for meals, keep in touch and try and make sure she is accessing support.

Don't mention that you are disappointed that she could be doing more academically, even though she is obviously a bright girl. She is seeking to take pressure off herself temporarily and maybe that's not a bad thing? So try and start a new chapter and instead of saying "we will pay for uni but you need to do this, this and this" reframe it as "we are delighted to support your choices , we believe in you, it's over to you now to make the most of it in the way you think best" and make it known that there are limits on your finances.

Watch very carefully what her reaction to this is though, as a lot of defensive bluster and backchat in teens is covering up fear and anxiety and lack of confidence and you may find that behind the rebellion and bravado she needs a lot of support. She obviously needs practical skills too regarding money management, self care, doing her own laundry and cooking so start giving her responsibility for those now.

When one of my teen girls started complaining about meals and being very fussy, (outside of Sunday lunch) I gave her responsibility for shopping, cooking and clearing up for herself and she soon stopped complaining! Backchat like this is often a sign they are ready to step up to more responsibility and if she chooses to eat crap then that's her choice (just leave the odd pasta or fruit salad in the fridge so they don't die of scurvy). Step back and let her take responsibility. After a few months of eating crap she will crave some good nutrition again.

In the meantime, you need to try and step back and support from the sidelines. She does not hate you op, rest assured she loves you, so please don't take her harsh words seriously. At the same time, do not engage in negative conversations. Walk away or walk out of the door if necessary. Make it clear you will engage with her when she is speaking reasonably.

And don't let yourself get so worn down by your concerns for her that you become depressed yourself. I made this mistake and it helps no one! Step back and make sure she sees you fully engaged in your own activities. Take up a hobby or exercise or be out more with the dog! Model reasonable, sensible pleasant interaction. Let her see you negotiate life's difficulties in a rational, sensible way. Be cheerful without being Pollyanna-ish. Let her see you work hard at your job. Let her see you enjoy life! Seek mh support for yourself if you need it. Your DD needs you to be there in the background gunning for her, and she needs you to be strong.

Tough love is not necessary if you step back a bit op because then your dd has to contend with the natural consequences of her choices. Eg, she doesn't have money for driving lessons BC she was sacked from her job. You can sympathise with her and say "oh that's a shame" but beyond that, let her work out the solutions for herself. Don't bail her out.

Good luck op. This period can be so tough but your DD will come through it and out the other side. Keep the lines of communication open but don't allow yourself to be treated like crap either. Try and believe in yourself some more. You are doing the best you can in difficult circumstances. Be strong, and hang in there

-www.youngminds.org.uk/
-'Untangled' by Lisa Damour

• have a search for the POTs threads on the teenager board on here

Thank you @Calafsidentity to take the time to write such a thoughtful response full of good advice and reinforcing some points that I probably needed to hear. It sounds like you have journeyed through some of this yourself. It really is a tough stage.
I like Lisa Darmour but it feels like we are beyond some of that good advice and it’s hard to implement when she won’t talk or engage at all. When she does engage, we’re so keen to meet her half way that we end up feeling ‘manipulated’ - she can be so devious.
Your step back approach, modelling good interactions, not allowing myself to be worn into depression myself and staying strong for her is all such good advice, and not doing these things is probably the reason it all spirals out of control sometimes.
You’re right about the Foundation degree too - her choice - and I like your way of framing it.
Bf is not a great influence - he’s finished school and kicking his heels before going to Uni next year. Unfortunately it’s to be with him that’s she’s changed her original plans. But she has to live with her choices now. We’ve tried to reach out to him too for example, buying him a Christmas present, but she told me to stick it because I wanted him to come in for a drink and a chat to give it to him.
Stepping back, not bailing her out and trying to see the struggles behind her nastiness is all good advice. Thank you 💐

@reetas That sounds so hard and especially if you have to work extra to fund university/social life. I completely get the dilemma - I feel she needs to go just so we can get a break - the behaviour is exhausting. But I also worry that she could get worse. I feel for you too 💐

I'm a university lecturer and I really wouldn't pay for her to go to university. At university, there'll be even more opportunity for her to do barely any work at all. So many of my students don't bother to come to lectures or submit coursework assignments (this has got much worse since the pandemic), and I feel sick when I think how much they're getting into debt and how much money their parents are wasting.

Sandydune yes I have been through some of what you are describing (although one one of mine is fine academically and socially, she just saves her major meltdowns for me home! The other has had academic issues but is a much more placid character. ) It is really difficult and, following your update, I think your instincts are right, it's not ideal to follow a bf to uni. Having said that, a daughter of a friend of mine has done this and it's worked out ok. She eventually dumped the bf there, although they remain friends, and she has blossomed and found other friends, so it can work out.

Obviously, you don't have to give details here, but are you sure she is being deliberately devious? They can be so self centred at this age and very focused on what they want to the exclusion of everyone else's feelings but do you think she is deliberately trying to deceive you? Or is it that she has faithfully agreed to follow through with something in order to get something from you and then doesn't do what she had promised? We have had experience of that too. We have had to point out how that erodes trust within our relationship and how the next time she wants something (because there is always next time) it won't be forthcoming until the trust issue has been repaired and she meets us half way.

Sorry to hear about all of this OP. You must be so drained having dealt with this for 4 years
I agree with a PP that going to university may not be the best thing here, as it just seems to delay growing up for some teenagers and young adults
She may be better off going straight into work or an apprenticeship. The sooner she enters real life the better for her and she may start to appreciate all you are doing for her

@Sandydune Much of your experience mirrors ours and I absolutely feel your pain. We are now accessing private mh support (which is expensive) for dd but it’s v early days. I don’t have answers, but I would say I have had to seriously back off for my own well-being, especially from the manipulation. This has meant doing other things, including putting in more hours at work, just to take my mind off things and role model what work/effort looks like. I never raise my voice and I walk away from all arguments. I don’t spend money on dd except the necessities (food/clothes) and at nearly 18 she does her own washing, cooking and bedroom (well, she doesn’t do her bedroom so it stays as it stays). We have made clear that funding for uni will come from some money she was left by a relative plus loans (ie - it will be her own money that is wasted if she doesn’t make a success of it). If we see a major turnaround, who knows what we might do down the line. I am often driven to tears by the sheer nastiness but my own parents put me together again. The school has been good as they now see what we have seen for years. ADHD might be in there but the mh professionals haven’t jumped on that as a starting point (we did raise it). My only advice is this; please look after yourself and invest whatever you can in doing so. Your dd needs you as do very many others I am sure.

Thank you @WhatsitallaboutAlfie1 . I’m sorry to hear you’re having a tough time too. Good advice and I hope that things start to improve for you soon 💐