Daughter going off rails

[Liedtomum]

I tried posting in another section but not many replies so trying here.

Until recently my 15 yr old daughter was helpful, polite, well-mannered and doing really well at school.

Couple months ago it all started going wrong.

Disobedient, confrontational, etc

Main thing I'm dealing with at the moment is struggling to get her to attend school, when she is there she's skipping classes, not doing homework, not making the effort in class.

I'm at my wits end and worried sick. School have tried to help but she's not engaging with them. At first she made out she was sorry, would try better etc now no such pretence. I try and talk to her about it she just loses her temper.

Dad not on the scene hasn't been for years.

I just don't know what to do.

No bullying going on, seems to mostly get on OK with friends, moans about teachers but no real issues as far as I can tell just the usual gripes but that hasn't stopped her before.

She just seems to have given up! Yet she claims to want to go to uni and have a career (in what changes periodically).

I'm stuck, I've tried tough love, listening and talking, school have talked to her...

Help!

[KindDogsTail]

I know this sounds odd, but if any direct illness is ruled out, I have experience of these physical symptoms arising as a result of bulimia and secret cravings and secret sugar/fats eating.

[Liedtomum]

Pastoral person IS annoying me now too (though not as much as daughter!)

More arguing this morning as she got up late and then faffed around!

The 'too busy' thing is probably better translated as ' I don't like to bother people/be seen as awkward/demanding/problematic' she can be reluctant/shy to approach adults.

Stop - I'm in process of organising an appointment with gp for her, needs to be a double appointment (not easy to get) as there's physical symptoms too (we thought glandular fever but test clear) and I for one want to know if there's a possible link.

I know people might think 'malingering' but I'm not convinced, because when whatever it was started she looked dreadful, was off her food and sleeping tons (completely out of character) plus fever, sweats, swollen red throat, rash, swollen joints and earache all of which lasted longer than a normal 'bug' would despite antibiotics, vitamins, fluids and rest. Despite her disability she's normally rarely off school sick and is very rarely very sick she is quite robust in terms of 'bugs'.

[KindDogsTail]

Daughter - the ones I like are too busy and the rest aren't helpful.
They probably are busy, but one of them might positively like to help her or at least encourage her, if asked. The pastoral person has told you it is permitted to ask anyone after all. That old adage is: when you need something doing, ask a busy person, and as she likes them, it may be because they really are nice.

The pastoral person sounds useless.

Stop, earlier in the thread these points you make were explored. Luckily she has agreed to see the GP.

[Stopyourhavering]

Could she be depressed?.... Maybe not doing well at school/ failing because she feels she is trapped?or realisation she needs to put in more effort to get the grades she needs to get out of where she is now.... Would she speak to GP / counsellor about her feelings

[Liedtomum]

Boy not at her school, different school. Not seeing him when she's missing school but word gets about so she's maybe hoping to seem 'anti authority' type 'cool'.

Pastoral person not nice (she), was brushing aside any positives, dwelling on negatives and taking the view it's ALL down to my daughter to sort the problem/s. Now I'd get if she'd said 'your daughter needs to meet us halfway' 'this is what we can do to help' or recommended anything I could do - nope! Just 'she HAS to come to school that's her choice if she doesn't' 'her choice if she doesn't go to lessons'. Hard to put across in written word as what she's SAYING isn't wrong but there was NO sense of understanding or support.

We don't do organised religion. I suggested an alternate teacher

Pastoral person - 'she can talk to any teacher she wants to' but no suggestions of who might be good in this kind of situation or an alternate pastoral person.

Daughter - the ones I like are too busy and the rest aren't helpful.

She does have a tendency to not want to bother people.

I have asked several times what I can do to help all I get is 'I hate school' from a kid that used to love school, was getting top marks, regularly on honour roll, was asked to mentor younger pupils and had to be persuaded to stay home when genuinely ill!

The list of subjects the new subject were in the other subjects either she already had the highest qualification the school does or hated the teacher. Yes I know that's not a great reason but daughter argued working at this level stressful/enough hard work without dealing with a teacher you don't get on with. Or the subject was not only new to her but completely unrelated to what she's done before or wanted to do in the future.

Don't get me wrong I'm no softy she has been told to get her arse into school attend all lessons and do the work to the best of her ability.

[KindDogsTail]

I think it sounds as though you have communicated a lot today.

Has she been seeing the boy when she does not go to school, or does she just see him at school?

Could you pick up anything from the pastoral person? Was she she/he just not nice, or is it a personality clash? Is there anyone else who might act in that role whom she likes more, for example, the head of her class or year or the RE teacher or any linked vicar?

Could you speak to the new teacher about any problems with it being much more difficult this year in the ex, favourite subject, I wonder. If the new unwanted subject is something she dislikes would be be too late to chose another she does like from that list.

Have you asked her, "Is there anything I can do do help?" (I found that to be good advice once.)

Somehow it seems as though you have made quite a bit of progress.

Of course there is no need to answer me Liedto - I was thinking out loud more than anything.

[Liedtomum]

Aw crap!

Ok 2 things - there's a boy - so it may be at least partly down to looking 'cool' to him.

Also she's been saying her pastoral person 'hates me' I was sceptical...until now.

The conversation tone, couple things she said, I don't think she likes my daughter/is interested in helping her. So that means I either need to discount her involvement (even though we need the support), or try to get her assigned someone else (which daughters asked me not to do as embarrassing/awkward/will set school more against her - not sure she's wrong!).

Really NOT what we need. One of the subjects she's missing regularly was previously a favourite (new teacher, I'm also wondering if there's a big gap between the level of work last year and this).

Other subject she's mainly missing is new for her and only taken because she had to choose an option out that list of that makes sense ? (Equally she had to give up a subject she liked as it was in same section as a subject she needed to take for what she wants to do at uni).

I just want her to be happy, challenged (but not struggling) and supported.

[KindDogsTail]

I hope you were able to contact the school in the end and have a happy evening with your dd.

[KindDogsTail]

Oh, what a difficult day Liedto! I hope you can give yourself a nice break sometime after you pin down the school.

[Liedtomum]

Aaaarrggghhhh!

She shouted at me for chivvying her along to get up this morning and she was late getting to school. School left me a voicemail returning my call, she's also not handed in homework this week. I'm SO SICK of this!

I'm SO angry! I'm not convinced she is anxious I think she may just be saying that to elicit sympathy.

I called school back but contact busy so playing bloody phone tag now!

[Liedtomum]

T875 no self harming - very relaxed home she happily wanders about semi nude after a bath/shower/when getting dressed in morning (could live without the trail of damp towels and clothes to be honest).

I've checked her phone when I've had it due to her being grounded. Condition of having phone is I know passcode and get to check it whenever I ask. That's been the case since she was younger, I don't usually check very often now but have done more recently.

Good luck with helping your own daughter it's really hard.

Friends are generally doing ok. Only one I'm not keen on is the one potentially leaving school, she's always been quite flighty, contrary. But my daughter and her aren't especially close anyway just in same group - phone backs this up.

I've phoned Drs for an appointment for her for the anxiety waiting on hearing back from school.

[KindDogsTail]

I am so sorry for your health problems and hope you will get what you need very soon.

Those books are very interesting, but unfortunately they would not have any absolute answers - I should hate to lead you to believe anything else.

Possibly School Refusal means total refusal, but it does sound as though, your daughter, from the point of view of her usual standards, has been 'checking out'.

[t875]

This possibly the pressure is getting to her? Sounds very much like it
She's running away
I hate to say this but is she showing signs of harming covering her arms all the time?
Have you asked her friends if they've picked up on the changes?
Check her phone as it's not always our kids that we need to worry about. My daughter unfortunately has met some friends who have gone through some awful times one with an eating disorder which we're working on with out daughter as this is what she has now. And the other went to a very dark mood. I would never of known unless I looked at her phone. Jumped in on snap chat.
Tumblr is awful! Check her social media history on google emails etc. I know we don't like to do this but don't think they leave us much choice when they get to being like this
All the best OP with a child at the moment struggling to do her mocks I feel for you. x

[Liedtomum]

I've been waiting for help with my own health for some time but I need to chase that up.

I'll look at those links in more depth tomorrow thanks.

I thought school refusal was complete truancy, not occasional absences or skipping classes.

[KindDogsTail]

Here is a general link to some articles by Oliver James.
www.theguardian.com/profile/oliverjames
One book where I read about academic pressure (as one thing discussed about many) was They Fuck You Up Your Mum and Dad. The other, I have not read is Love Bombing. He takes a certain line, everything is environmental not genetic.

I have just remembered this really brilliant book which is about the 'the right way' to encourage excellence, though it would not tell you how exactly to enravel this predicament:
www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322/ref=pd_sbs_14_img_1/166-7007210-5349135?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 by Alice Miller
It will not help you know what to do exactly, but it is famous for good reason though rather depressing - it mentions a girl who stopped working at school
(in passing, so as to make one point).

What your DD is doing is well known and called "School Refusal' if that helps you look it up, forgive me if you know anyway.
www.handsonscotland.co.uk/topics/anxiety/school_refusal.html

Truly though, being as self-respecting and involved with things outside her as you can be yourself could help her a lot. It may help her a great deal too, in my experience, if you could have some counselling (you may have already), modelling looking after yourself and asking for what you need. This could involve even buying some small items for yourself you need or like - it is not selfish, it has the opposite effect as selfishness.

[Liedtomum]

She is indeed something of a perfectionist, not just my opinion teachers have mentioned it too. One subject she was good at she packed in because she never thought she'd be 'good enough' at it as it wasn't one of her best subjects BUT it was one that she got pleasure out of so I tried to encourage her to keep it as a 'fun' or less demanding subject, she didn't.

She is perhaps too aware of gaps in her knowledge despite me and teachers saying repeatedly she's absolutely not expected to know everything. I and other adults she knows have also been in education and further training as older adults - we're still learning new things. I like watching quizzes, often making comments like 'well I never knew that' or 'I thought the opposite was true'. Because nobody knows everything!

We are very close, for a long time it's just been the two of us and when shits happened that tends to be where we end up - sticking to our own thing.

I've messaged you about some aspects of your 4th paragraph as I'm limited what I can do.

Myself and teachers do say to do her best and that's all we expect, but she's stopped doing her best.

Unfortunately geographically uni means leaving home even if she went to our nearest. She'd maybe be able to come home weekends but it'd be a stretch financially (I also think once there she would likely make friends and be too busy enjoying herself - that's the hope).

The course and uni she wants to go to are quite - prestigious? So yes feeling out of her depth would make sense.

Our gp is not one for dishing out meds for ANYTHING so unlikely to just throw anti depressants at her. More likely to refer her for some sort of counselling but I don't know how long the waiting list for that will be.

Can you say which book or will it be easy to find on say Amazon?

I tell her I love her a lot - we have our own way of saying it which was developed as a result of her being embarrassed of me just saying 'I love you' in front of her friends. Now worried that's wrong in terms of the 'too close' thing.

Just feel I've let her down in so many ways.

Choosing an idiot to be her dad.

Not taking care of my own health as well as I could have.

Moving us to middle of nowhere (there seemed to be good reasons at the time but hindsight has perfect vision)

Not realising straight away when she was getting bullied.

Don't want her life messed up from my mistakes.

[KindDogsTail]

Could it be the impending pressure of exams? Fifteen is when things start to get tough/serious academically isn't it? If she is lacking in confidence, she may have decided that it is less risky/less effort to just not try, rather than exposing herself to the fear of failure perhaps?

In my opinion what Sweeping said can definitely be an issue with girls of this age. She might be a perfectionist and have an all or nothing attitude; she might think she has already missed too much and cannot catch up, or that everyone expects her to get top marks and it would be failure to get anything less.

You ask OP, Can there be a fear of failure even if that's not likely? Absolutely there can! The cleverer the girl the more she will be aware of what she does not know, how much there is to know out there, how much she has to lose if she does not live up to expectations (she may feel loved and respected because she is clever).

If she fails her exams - that's my biggest fear! she may have picked up on this and it may be affecting her. Please do not take this as being unkindly meant, but you may be too close to each othet. You may be breathing each others breaths so to speak. She may know what you are thinking without you saying anything, plus it sounds as though she is worrying about you. Is there any chance you could take up an interest, or take to seeing a friend, or joining some group to give her the message you have a happy life even without her? This may take some pressure off which she may be feeling even though you are trying to avoid her feeling this. I think it is one of those rules: see to yourself and the people around you will begin to find their own way too.

The thing to stress is that she does not have to be the best, just do the best she can personally manage (under her personal circumstances) and that even if she just gets through that will still be good enough. She can still do another course. She just needs to take one step at a time and not project herself, or worry she may fail.

On the other hand, WIndpower may be right about her being frightened of success- especially as she was bullied on the past she may be scared of going to a new place where she might feel out of place, or to a place where everyone will be very clever. She does not have to go far away though a s could also go somewhere closer to home, couldn't she?

I do not think escalating punishments will help, however difficult this all is.

The great pressure felt by girls is well-known now. Oliver James (if you have not read his books he is a psychologist) has written about the fear of academic failure in one of his books. The more clever you are, the more you are given the next hurdle. There will always be someone cleverer too.

OJ recommends what he calls "Love bombing" when there is trouble in general.

Oohthatsme may be right about Yoga; and also Mindlefulness was shown to help people a lot with school pressure. I hope she will take this route and a talking therapy, (not be coshed by anti-depressants from a GP aged 15.)

This does sound agonising for you and I so feel for you and your daughter.

[Liedtomum]

Yes fear of success/change might well be a factor too. She's not good at change. I've tried to assure her I'm always here for her (unfortunately I'm the only person who has been in her life - long story) and that uni is fun as well as being hard work in terms of study that there's lots to do and that she'll make new friends etc

She tends to stick to her wee gang.

I've also shown her my uni and I've always talked about how much fun it was and that I enjoyed the studies too and I'm still friends with the friends I made there.

We've looked at my uni online and the one she wants to go to (she's a bit fixated there which is another problem) and looked at the accommodation, the clubs and societies all that.

[WindPowerRanger]

Just a thought, but she might equally be afraid of success.

It is good that you want more for her, but that means if she does well she leaves everything and everyone she knows behind, and strikes out alone. Perhaps she just can't see what her future will be and where she will fit in? If there is anything in that, then possibly some kind of mentoring would be good for her. Plus being reassured that she will not be alone whether she succeeds or fails.

[Sweepingchange]

It's v v hard op; my dd is a bit younger but boy she has a strong will. I find it stressful every day. Sounds as though you have a really productive talk with your dd tonight and have some great strategies in place. I hope it works out for you both x. (Off now to crack the whip over hwk again - sigh.)

[Liedtomum]

Just talked to her again. I'm going to call school again tomorrow. The teacher that's supposed to provide pastoral care for my daughter and is the point of contact for me, my daughter doesn't and never has liked her. Daughter is also saying that she hasn't skipped class since it last came up, now I know she could be lying but equally the school have got it wrong on occasion.

Somewhat tearful/angry conversation on both sides. I've said she has GOT to go to school, not skip classes, be engaged when she's in school and do homework to her best ability. That she's letting herself down not me (her usual deflection is 'you're just worried they'll think you're a bad mum').

I've said in return I'll get her a dr appointment (she's agreed to see dr about anxiety/stress only taken 2 years!) and speak to the school to see if she can have a different pastoral person (she doesn't think they'll do this but my argument was it can't hurt to ask).

I'm really hoping we can start moving in the right direction.

Thanks for all the advice and empathy, it does help to know it's not just us. I'll admit I did think I'd 'got away with' having a child that was relatively well behaved and would escape the teenage years relatively unscathed. Naive and arrogant I know.

God is this hard!

[Sweepingchange]

op

Sounds like a mixture of anxiety and perhaps wanting a last (or first) kick back before getting to grips with it all. And perhaps a touch of teenage "catastrophising" black & white thinking ie if I fail these exams then I will never escape/ won't be able to help my ma etc etc. We all go for the easy options sometimes in life. She just needs reassurance that she CAN do it.

As the mother of a teen who is perfectly able but self sabatages all the time (and has unhappy combination of sensitivity and huge stubbornness and who - like her mother - needs frequent kicks up rear to get her studying ) I can really, really sympathise op.

It is a difficult balancing act. Not piling on the pressure too much so as to cause anxiety but at the same time trying to motivate but not allow any back-sliding. I haven't got it right yet!

As school work is causing quite a Iot of tension between me and dd, I am engaging a tutor to help twice a week, but I know I am very privileged to be able to afford that. If a tutor not poss, could you perhaps seek help from a university student or maybe a teacher at school (someone your dd likes and respects) could help? It might be that just one"outside" adult mentoring your dd and taking a genuine interest might make all the difference?? We mums are too close sometimes.

[Liedtomum]

The reality round here if you fail to get good exam results and get out is you'll be doing well if you get a minimum wage job, probably zero hours, pray the company don't go bust/leave the area.

Lots of unemployment, drug use, young mums...

You get the idea.

[Liedtomum]

She's said herself once she's out she'll never be back to live. But she has to get out first.

[Liedtomum]

If she fails her exams - that's my biggest fear! I hate where we live and want her to be able to get out. There's no jobs, very little opportunity for further education, not a nice place. My fault for landing us here! Huge regret of mine. It's my home town, I got out but ended go back here after splitting with her dad and becoming ill.

Honestly half the high street boarded up, businesses closing almost daily, this past year 2 big local employers have gone (one bust one moved operations elsewhere).

There's only one small supermarket even! If a full time job is advertised they're inundated with applications.