Guilt, anger, impact on wider family - downward spiral?

[Minifingers]

Anyone who's read my threads on this board (and elsewhere on mumsnet) will know something about the journey we've been on the past couple of years with dd.

I'm posting because I've been mulling on the issue of dd digging herself into a hole regarding her responsibility for the problems she's having at school and at home. Following a meeting with her HOY at school last Tuesday, there's been no let-up and she now has an ongoing exclusion from two lessons, with a permanent exclusion on the cards for the end of this term. Yesterday she phoned me and told me that she had shoved a supply teacher out of the way when this teacher tried to keep her in the room (she wanted to talk to dd about her behaviour and dd wanted to leave). The teacher told her it was assault. As far as I'm aware this incident hasn't got back to her HOY year yet and may not get back, if the supply teacher doesn't mention it, which she may not. If it does get back to the HOY I don't know what will happen, as this is a very serious accusation, and it may result in immediate temporary exclusion, or perhaps will accelerate a permanent exclusion.

DD is adamant it's not her fault. She's adamant that NOTHING is her fault. She said it's illegal for a teacher to hold her against her will, and that if a taxi driver had done this to her I'd consider it a criminal act. She's never really acknowledged, explained or apologised for anything she's done and will talk until she's blue in the face, shouting everyone down, talking faster and faster to try to justify her behaviour.

She's been staying with my mum and sister (who live together) since a violent episode at home a few weeks ago, to give us all a break. I was talking to my mum this morning and I can hear the sadness, disappointment and exhaustion in her voice. DD hasn't been anywhere near as bad at my mum's as she has been here, but she's still incredibly selfish, moody and obstructive. My mum is nearly 80 and I just don't know how much she can take. My sister has a very full-on job, is a recovering alcoholic and is over 50, and I know that dd's behaviour is affecting her too. In addition to this my inlaws - who are both very frail - are worrying about dd. We are a close family and everyone knows what's going on. DH sees his parents 2 or 3 times a week (he is helping to care for them as they're both currently disabled and in poor health) and they can see the impact of dd's behaviour on him - he is very stressed and saddened by it. My two younger children have been affected by dd's aggressive behaviour - how could they not be when DH and I are so affected by it? Ds1 has been very anxious of late, neurotic and moody himself, and I keep thinking about what it's like for a child of 10 (who has health worries) to live in a house where there is screaming, shouting and violence going on on a regular basis.

My SIL, who has been incredibly supportive of all of us, is now obviously also starting to feel angry with dd - she can see the impact of dd's behaviour on DH and is aware of her parents worrying about DH and dd. The ripples just spread out, and out and out.

And I'm starting to wonder if dd is too scared to take responsibility for her behaviour, because that would mean acknowledging how much harm she's done and is doing to everyone who loves her, and she can't face it. So she's digging herself into a trench, turning her face away from everyone who's trying to help her, and is on a downward spiral which will end - who knows where?

My dd is very close to my mum and sister and sees DH's parents regularly. She was named after my mum and my mother adores her. My IL really are in poor health, and my mum is facing a very serious operation at the end of this year. I keep thinking about what it will do to us and to dd, if we lose one of the grandparents this year, and dd has to live with the knowledge that all she did in the last few years of their life was make them feel sad and worried. She will have a very big burden of guilt to carry, and I wonder what that will do to her already very poor self-esteem.

And yet we can't really pretend her behaviour isn't impacting on the rest of us, or stop mentioning it to her, in an attempt to help her overlook the harm she's doing. To try to avoid her feeling guilty.

[Machineg]

Like others, I have read a lot of your posts and despite feeling really sympathetic for the tough situation you're in, each time I come away feeling very sorry for your dd. I particularly remember your post a few months back about what a pretty little child she was when she was younger and how she has now become very big - not just tall but also overweight and seems to have inherited that tendency from one or other side of the family. Do I also remember rightly that she is mixed race?

It really sounds as though puberty has hit her like a ton of bricks - once she was the pretty, adored, clever child and it was all so easy. Now she is full of anger and bewilderment at the loss of that life, full of self-loathing about her looks which are far from the advertised 'ideal' set for teenaged girls i.e. skinny, white, perfect complexion etc.

The immaturity you describe does not sound at all odd to me - it really sounds almost standard for a 14 year-old child. My ds is the same age and is just the same weird mix of maturity and childishness, they are still in-between worlds, trying to cope with a changed landscape.

From all that you have written she is clearly someone with a hell of a lot of potential and once she can get through this awful stage and start to gain some self-control and direction she might well amaze and delight you all over again. Don't forget, your previous thread had many posts describing people who had come back from awful teenage experiences - including PRU and much worse - to transform their adult lives.

[TheMoonInJune]

Minifingers do you think I could PM you?

-x-

[Kleinzeit]

I am sorry if I was patronising, I really struggled to write that post and I’m sorry it came across badly. I’ll back off. And I should’ve said – I do think you and your DH are very brave caring parents. Hope things get better for you and you find the support you need.

[cory]

Interesting thought from Sparkly about how ASD may only be apparent with the move to independence, that sounds like another possible line of enquiry.

[onyerbike]

As the parent of a very difficult 16 yr dd I really sympathise with you.

One of the biggest difficulties is trying to figure out why? There is also the line of suspicion from others.

Well something must be wrong at home?
Something must have happened?
Nobody behaves like this for no reason it's obviously a cry for help?

Actually the judgement and patronising, sanctimonious comments only further validate your worthlessness as a mother and general all round human being.

I'm happy for all who have young people grow up without too many difficulties, and i'm also quite envious. I wish that was me. I also hope that all of you who pass judgment and apportion blame don't ever experience how bad that hurts if things don't always work out for you.

Good luck x

[yegodsandlittlefishes]

Can I just stress that I wasn't getting at you either, OP. I have not followed your posts, so only responded to this thread. (Probably obvious from my questions). I have an incredibly hard situation to deal with myself at home, if it's any help to know. You are not alone!
I spent all of yesterday telling myself 'I am not to blame, and nor is X'. I can't even post about it.

Would it also be worth having her tested for mineral/vitamin/nutrition levels? I'm thinking iron, magnesium and (if there are tests for this, I don't know) selenium and dopamine processing.

I asked about whether she is eating and sleeping because at this age their brain development can be hindered, even halted by lack of nutrition. Don't allow that to sound like any kind of criticism of you or her...This kind of thing can be hereditary.

[Sparklysilversequins]

I have read your other threads too. I I think it sounds indicative of an ASD or PDA. Have you had her assessed for these things? I have TWO children who have ASD by the way.

I was at school with a girl who sounds just like your dd, we were all terrified of her but friends so that we wouldn't be her target. I accepted a friend request off her not so long ago on FB and in the interim she has been in prison and addicted to drugs. She seems to be sober now. It is quite clear to me now that she has PDA. I am not saying that is your dd's path, only that this girl was written off as a total waste of space and she wasn't.

I will be honest your posts make me feel a bit irritated. Your whole family is scapegoating your dd. almost wallowing in it. My dd sounds like a younger version of yours but we don't take it personally, it is what it is and I won't hear a word about her from others. They can like or lump her. Don't get me wrong she sounds thoroughly unpleasant but I am a firm believer that most kids don't want to be this way. If they are and have a decent family life there's more than likely something else at play.

It's also quite interesting to note that she was fine up till adolescence. This is a time when the rules are relaxed and life's structure is not so firm. The things that held her in place are gradually disappearing and maybe she just can't handle that doesn't know how to self govern and self discipline herself, again a common trait with ASD.

Maybe I am totally wrong but there's a lot of undiagnosed ASD about especially in girls, its hard to spot and the way you describe your dd really rings bells with me.

[cory]

It does sound odd, doesn't it? One does kind of expect a teen to become more emotional and more rebellious but the whole descent into immaturity you describe sounds a bit strange. Perhaps the hormonal thing is something to look into.

In any case, I think you're right about making the GP your next port of call. Whether she needs medical treatment or more/different therapy or whatever, this situation is impossible, you can't live like this. Hopefully the GP will have a list of different types of support.

[Minifingers]

"What outside, professional support do you have with your dd? Sorry if I missed that somewhere but it sounds like, apart from school, there are no qualified professionals helping any of you with this terrible situation."

School is being great. She is being given a mentor and put on a programme offering additional support.

We have had involvement from CAMHS (family therapy - useless), but that has come to an end. They are not offering any more support at present.

I think I'm going to go back to the GP, who is brilliant, but almost impossible to get an appointment with. (the good ones always are aren't they!)

Sorry Cory - didn't mean to snap at you. I think anxiety is often at the bottom of self destructive and attention seeking behaviour. I know I was a very anxious teen. I think I had good reason to be (was very much left to my own devices from 11 to 17 at 2 crap and uncaring boarding schools). I had terribly low self esteem during my teens and it took me a long time to recover.


"I'm wondering too if maybe your sister is enjoying having dd around op?" She really does. She has no children of her own, and is a beloved aunty. It's just her job is SO full on, that dd's shenanigans (like not getting in touch about what time she'll be home - worrying in a 14 year old) can be very exhausting. She likes that dd brings some teenage life into a house which would other wise be very staid, having only an 80 year old and a 50 year old in it (plus two mad dogs!).

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I do use mumsnet to offload. I don't like to keep talking about this issue to friends because I know they think ill of dd, and that's hard for me. Hurtful.

Ehhn, your suggestions are very interesting! Her behaviour is SO transformed in adolescence that hormonal issues have been on my mind. She was a truly lovely child before adolescence - high spirited, INCREDIBLY cheerful, co-operative at school. She was delightful. She's like a different person now. She can still be very high spirited, but she's so immature - in a weird way. She's exceptionally confident talking to adults and other teens, and getting around, but seems to have no ability to manage negative emotions and boredom, and doesn't seem to understand the concept of deferred gratification AT ALL. If she doesn't want to do something she simply won't do it. If she wants to do something she won't be stopped from doing it. This is the bottom line with all the problems she's currently having at school and at home.

[Unexpected]

What outside, professional support do you have with your dd? Sorry if I missed that somewhere but it sounds like, apart from school, there are no qualified professionals helping any of you with this terrible situation.

[sillyname]

I had a sibling that behaved like your dd. nothing made the slightest difference.

I have the utmost respect and sympathy for you, I have followed some of your threads.

I do think that deep unhappiness lies at the bottom of this and the reason your dd cant tell you what the problem is because she doesn't know.

Can you afford private therapy for her?

[IDismyname]

I do think you need some outside help, here. It sounds like you've gone round and round in circles. Mini, and its made not a lot of difference.

Is there someone (either a professional or someone out of the loop) who can take DD aside and ask her exactly what she wants? She's doing a good job of running you all ragged. She needs to understand the effect she's having on you (whether she likes it or not), and you all need a plan of action.

It may be a hormonal balance thing going on... Has DD been to the GP recently? Does your GP know whats going on?

I do sympathise - I have a 15 yo DS. Its a hellish time.

[cory]

Minifingers, I think you are perhaps over-interpreting other people's posts into reading criticism where none may have been intended.

I for one was not suggesting that your or anybody else was responsible for your dd's (possible) anxiety.

I was just thinking that some teens do seem to carry enormous reserves of anxiety or stress inside themselves which finds an outlet in anger because they don't know what else to do with it.

That is not the same as saying that your family is anxiety inducing.

Out of dd's friends several that have gone to pieces come from families very similar to the one you describe: loving functional families with no obvious stress triggers. Otoh of course most children from such families do not go to pieces. And some children from families with severe obvious stress triggers cope perfectly well.

After all, she is hardly likely to be behaving like this because she is happy and enjoying herself. There is some level on which she is not happy. If that could be identified and treated, you would all be a lot better off.

[Ehhn]

the fact that this began in puberty may suggest that it is a hormone imbalance? This may be massively inappropriate/wrong parallel for me draw, but I've seen young mares turn from nice, rideable youngsters to horses that stress out/panic about things, explode dangerously/violently when asked to do something they don't want to do and can endanger their riders, with whom the horses normally have a good relationship. No amount of praise or punishment stops it. It is literally a Jekyll and Hyde type of change. It is also nearly always due to hormone imbalance (discovered through blood tests) and can be helped with magnesium supplements for milder cases and medical intervention (hormone treatments or a horse equivalent of a coil) for more serious ones. I am really, really not trying to belittle your situation and please don't think that I am simply comparing your dd with a horse, but the behaviour/transformation parallel seems apt and is perhaps worth exploring medically as add/ADHD may not be an issue but, as this has been going on since puberty it may be hormonal. I don't know if there is an equivalent for humans that would work (going on the pill?) but maybe a gp or even a specialist might be able to help.

[HumphreyCobbler]

I agree Leo35, I think getting it off your chest can only be helpful. At least it will help in the short term

[Leo35]

Hi Minifingers, I have read your other thread and also this one. You have a lot on your plate and you have my sympathy. It is an intolerable situation and it's a key point to ask about the impact of your daughter's behaviour on the wider family.

This is going to look harsh written down, but would the best thing be for you to discuss this with a family therapist? For you to explore these lines of thought with someone face to face? Someone who can listen and let you expand on the situations and who has most likely seen clients with similar family problems?

You are writing a lot in response to MNetter's replies and that does make me think that unloading in a different environment than this may help you. Online we can't do nuance and subtlety very well.

I think that the point is letting you have the clarity and also support, even for some difficult decisions that may arise, from someone who is not involved. Look after yourself, it's hard being the back-stop to the rest of them. Really hope that things work out for you all and that life takes a better turn for you. Too early for even for me so . Really, really hoping that this doesn't read as patronising.

[CaptainSweatPants]

I'm wondering too if maybe your sister is enjoying having dd around op?
Maybe it's a focus for her, to take her mind off her own problems
I think it's great your extended family is helping you out xx

[CaptainSweatPants]

Sorry if I offended with my post
I felt the op was attacking earlier posters who were trying to help

[HumphreyCobbler]

She wants some support. Is that so hard to understand, or to do?

[Beeyump]

I don't understand what you hope to achieve from this thread.

[HumphreyCobbler]

I think the OP wanted some support in a difficult situation, not to be picked apart by people who think they can solve such a challenge in a few patronising posts. However well meaning. I also think she has the right to vent and this in itself may be helpful

Minifingers, I think it all sounds incredibly difficult. I am sorry I have nothing constructive to say, except I would stop trying to justify myself to people who clearly don't get it.

I have no relevant experience but I am sympathetic, for what it is worth. Hope someone comes along who can help without judging. This is not AIBU.

[CaptainSweatPants]

What is it you want from this thread then?
Everything anyone has said you've picked over & denied

So leave your dd with your mum until she's too ill/ old to cold anymore
Dd is 16, in 2 years she'll be an adult & can live on her own

If your mum wants rid of her then worry about it when it happens

[Minifingers]

"Your sister's alcoholism will have affected your DD, of course it will. Don't underestimate the impact of such an illness on all the family".

No it hasn't.

My sister was an alcoholic for a few years while living with an abusive partner. Prior to this relationship she didn't drink. At the time she was drinking heavily she was living 50 miles away and we only saw her a few times a year. She was never drunk when we saw her. DD has never seen my sister drunk. After leaving her abusive relationship my sister moved in with my parents and stopped drinking. It is only since then that she has spent much time with dd.


"I have no doubt that your sister will have generated enormous amounts of stress that family members did not ask for, yet you forgive her easily. Why her and not your DD?"

Actually she didn't. She was a functioning alcoholic who hid her drinking from the rest of the family. She lived miles away at the time and we rarely saw her. When we did see her she was sober, which is why it took such a long time to realise that she had a problem. By the time she admitted she was an alcoholic she was ready to stop drinking - which she did overnight. She has been dry for several years.


"Your DH is a carer for his parents, while this is very admirable, he is clearly needed at home."

He's at home plenty enough to care for his other children. His parents live - literally - five minutes drive away. He goes over two evenings a week and one day at the weekend. Often the kids go with him so they can spend time with his parents. DD goes with him sometimes, when she's not being objectionable, and spends time with MIL and FIL, who she loves, and who are very good to her. DH still finds time to take dd out for meals and take her shopping.

Seriously - why are people looking for a story that doesn't exist: of a family mired in problems who are neglecting their teenage dd. DD's behaviour is our main problem, not the grandparents, who are lovely, not either of our ds's, nor my sister - who has been incredibly supportive, loving and helpful to dd.

"There is a real sense that your DD would make your life easier if she just behaved and allowed you to continue to worry about and care for others. She is telling you she needs you"

FFS - dd has PLENTY of attention and time with me and DH and all her other relatives. She is NOT neglected. For a start she is perfectly welcome to go with DH when he goes round to his parents. The other teenage grandchildren do when it's their parents time to help out. It's no big sacrifice. The grandparents have Wi-Fi and flat screen TV's! ARe you suggesting that impoverishing his parents and leaving them in the hands of professional carers is necessary so he can spend those two evenings at home staring at dd's closed bedroom door instead? (she's a teenager - she doesn't want to spend time with us).

"but she also seems to be regarded as the one whose absence would make everyone better"

Sadly - when you have a situation where a child has for several years been generating HUGE amounts of stress within the family by consistently terrible behaviour - way beyond normal stroppy/obstructive teen stuff, then I'm sorry to say everyone does eventually get to the point where they're happier if she's not at home. She's been staying at my mums for 3 weeks now after an episode at home where we ended up having to call the police because of her violence (third time in a year). My two younger dc's are so much more relaxed and less anxious without her here. And now I'm phoning my mum and hearing the tiredness in her voice - dd has sworn at her and pushed her because she asked her to hand her phone and laptop over at 11pm on a school night, and dd didn't want to.


"Do we ever know what is going on in somebody's head?"

No. None of us know what's going on in DD's head. None of us are anywhere close to understanding WHY a child from a loving, supportive extended family, a child with everything going for her - friendships, intelligence, talent, good health, should be on a mission to ruin her life chances and make everyone who loves her utterly miserable. I think this is what's torturing us and making life impossible. None of us know why. I'm not sure she does.

All I can say is that the things that people are implying here are behind her behaviour - emotional neglect, family stress, bullying: none of these are at the root of what's happening. There is stress in ALL families. Caring for extended family, having busy full-time jobs and other children with special needs - these aren't unusual responsibilities. This is part and parcel of ordinary day to day life for loads of people, and we would manage it well if we weren't having to also be constantly dealing with violent and abusive behaviour at home from dd, and with the difficulties she's now creating at school.

[cory]

Minifingers Wed 02-Oct-13 07:40:57
"Cory, my dd is NOT anxious."

Obviously she is not anxious in the same way mine was.

I was just thinking about some past posts of flow's (who will hopefully be along soon) about how her son translated stress into anger. Could there be something similar? That there is some kind of inner tension/anxiety that she is acting out in this way?

Do we ever know what is going on in somebody's head?

[Snazzyenjoyingsummer]

I remember your thread about the PRU. I think she should go.What does she say about it herself?

The family stuff is just hard all round. I don't have any answers but you have my sympathy.