DD 11 and DS 13. She can't stand him, treats him like something she's scraped off her shoe at all times. I mean relentlessly. She undermines his confidence all day, every day. For the last 2 days every time he opens his mouth to speak she has hissed "shhhh" at him. It's like a hate campaign that has gone on and on and on. She calls him awful, hateful names about his physical appearance, really goes in where it hurts. We impose sanctions, she gets upset and stops for a day or so, then it starts again.
We have all put ourselves out today so DD could go riding. DS has stood around, uncomplaining, for hours. Afterwards we went to the supermarket and she was like a spoiled princess the whole time. About 1/2 hr ago, just about to sit down for a family meal, I hear a rumpus upstairs. She has been hideous to DS, (refusing to tell him where his phone charger is in the most provocative manner), he has reached the end of his tether and has pulled her hair and kicked her in the back. This never usually happens. He's clearly had enough.
The next bit was not good, on my part. I told her it was long overdue and showed no sympathy at all. She was crying, she's thrown laundry around upstairs (I mean deliberately chucked clean stuff all over the place), had a bath and is now eating alone in silence. I had a word with DS whilst she was upstairs. I told him violence is unacceptable under any circumstances, he has voluntarily written her a note of apology, he feels bad and says he just snapped. I've confiscated her beloved phone until weds (not told her yet).
What now? I'm going to have a delinquent on my hands. She's just so angry, most of the time, and I don't know why. It's been like this for a couple of years. How should I have dealt with the violence?
This is just crap. I was looking forward to this evening and it's all so bloody miserable.
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FredWorms · 26/01/2013 20:22
You're right, Pacific, it's absolutely not advice to put into practice when tempers are running high and/or when physical violence is involved.
The OP was asking for advice/suggestions about 'long-term strategy' (I think), rather than 'crisis intervention', so that's what I was focussing on.
When I think about it, in 'crisis' circumstances I aim to:
- Prevent if possible: distract 'em just like toddlers tho' maybe not with bananas ; head it off with some other activity; separate in anticipation, etc.
- Remind kids of no violence rules (they sometimes seem to forget v easily when they're angry
)
- Listen out for whether they're equal participants: since my kids rarely argue in front of me, I am often making judgements about whether/how to intervene from another room - it's very tricky, and I don't always get it right. I agree with achillia and others who say some sibling conflict is normal, and actually I think that if parents always intervene it can cause problems, because the kids don't learn to resolve disagreements for themselves... But I find I can usually hear a 'change of pitch' or some sort of 'escalation of emotions' - a sign that one or the other isn't coping any more - and that's what I listen out for.
- Checking/giving feedback: I call something like "Are you both OK? It sounds like that's going too far". This gives them both the opportunity to take it down a notch if it's a 'fair fight', and gives me more of a sense of whether everything's still OK.
- Intervene if one of them isn't OK or can't 'handle it': sometimes that's the younger, smaller one; sometimes it's the older, more insecure, less articulate one, who's more likely to 'snap' and be violent. I intervene very directly by entering the room, shouting "Stop it!" before anything else, and if necessary stepping in between them (but that point hasn't been reached for a very long time).
- Separate: sending or taking one of them out of the room. I can't really 'send' them to their rooms any more (at 13 and 17 - they just don't go) but usually the one who had had enough is happy to come with me.
- Express my dislike: I'll reinforce that I don't like fighting, or that they went too far, or that one of them was out of order.
- I don't use sanctions: I learned a long time ago that unless you see every moment of a conflict, you can't be sure who's 'right' and who's 'wrong', and anyway punishment doesn't seem to work (see above).
- Don't give it more attention at the time: You know that old bit of advice, Ignore the behaviour you don't want to encourage? Well, because of this, I give conflict as little of my attention as I can manage, at/around the time it's happening. Once the immediate crisis is over and I have (I hope) prevented anyone getting hurt or losing control, I don't fuss or comfort or nag. If anyone is upset, I'll give hugs, but I'm also likely to say something like "Well, you should have walked away sooner".
10. If anything needs discussing, talk about it much later: IME, nothing constructive is ever discussed in the immediate aftermath of an argument or fight - adrenaline and testosterone mean no-one can think straight for a while. If I think they need to talk about something, or I need to say anything about their behaviour, I'll do it hours later, or even the next day.
It seems to work reasonably well. My boys dislike each other fairly intensely - my youngest says he hates the eldest - and they have very different 'attack styles (my eldest is more likely to be physical and my youngest is more likely to be verbally nasty or cruel) - but they haven't 'totally lost it' with each other ever, and conflicts where someone gets even slightly hurt (as opposed to angry) are very rare - maybe 3 times a year. I reckon we get to 'stage 4' maybe once a month. They wind each other up a lot, but it hardly ever gets unmanageable.
I am less good at handling conflict/aggression when it is directed at me tho' - or I used to be - but I have (sadly) had quite a bit of 'practice' with DS1 and learned a lot. And I have found it much easier since I introduced the 'no violence' rule...
Sorry - I've made a couple of long posts now!
I guess it must be useful for me to think it all through like this!
Blimey, the riding thing got people going didn't it? It's not regular and it's free, a relative has a horse and it was a pre-arranged thing. I encouraged DS to come along because he spent much of the day before alone at home messing on his computer and I thought fresh air might do him good. I'm certainly not bending over backwards to appease her.
The thing is, as a few perceptive readers have noticed, the sanctions aren't working. "Coming down like a ton of bricks" doesn't work. I removed her phone last night, she's not getting it back until she's been civil to him for 3 days. She loves her phone. It's her first, a Christmas present. She is v angry and has been nasty to him several times today. It's not working.
I've ordered the book Startail, thankyou.
I've also tried praising the good stuff, spending time with her etc. I'm stumped, tbh.
Cervixfiddler, you are my friend 
DD2 doesn't like being the youngest at all.
Despite the fact that she reads, spells and makes friends far more easily than her dyslexic big sister (who is three years older), she still hates it.
There are several threads running at the moment about DDs and DDs of 11. Seems to be a very frustrating in between age.
I was a horrible Y5/Y6 very disobedient and cheeky.
I think DCs that age want more freedom than they can handle, but are still very insecure and want to hold on to being little kids too.
My two are totally different and surprisingly don't fight.
Partly because DD1 is very tolerant of DD2's control freak nature and let's her have her own way. Partly because DD2 knows any cocky school work or friendship snide comments get her sent instantly to her room.
They have too, DD1 is only tolerant up to a point. Then DD2 is likely to get thumped. DD1 is not little, never has been.
Also we live in the middle of no where if you want company you need to get along.
I have the book from the linty and the chapter reminded me of a year 5 boy in a class I helped in.
Teacher wanted to talk to his mum because he was being a grade A pain. He said to me he didn't care he'd already had all his privileges removed and he couldn't see what else she could do. He really didn't care.
He was 10 and he had a brain, but he just accepted that he'd always be being punished and in trouble.
Flow's book has been written (see above link)
My own problem with crisis intervention seems to be that things can flare so quickly and suddenly that I don't see it coming until the fists are flying. They are good at making faces at each other (silently) until sombody, usually DS2, loses their rad.
Fred, I am certain with my 2 that low self-esteem/self-worth has a lot to do with DS2's outbursts. DS1 is v academic, high flyer at school (they go to the same school, natch), popular, funny, much better at 'reading' social signals, emotionally far more mature than DS2 than their 12 month age gap would suggest.
So, DS2 feels rubbish at everything not because he IS rubbing, but because his older brother appears better at everything. In fact, DS2 is doing just fine in most things, and is better at some other things than dS1 ie sport. He just does not value it the same.
Today they were fighting over who brushed their teeth better, for goodness sake !
I have been trying hard to get DS2 involved in some activity, any activity, that DS1 does not do, but he point-blank refuses to go to rugby/cubs/art calss. For I care, I'd take him ballet dancing, just get him a taster of something that might turn out to be his 'thing'.
Sorry, to offload here. I clearly have nothing particularly helpful to say, other than offer sympathy. I saw his counsellor today who felt that things had improved before Christmas (they had) and was going to close his case, but I asked her to meet with him again. He is so much happier when he has been to see her. From what I can tell, she does nothing radically different than what I am trying at home (getting him to look on his good points/strength, getting him to set goals etc) but it seems to much more effective coming from somebody who is not-mummy IYKWIM.
So maybe that is my genius helpful input on your thread, fred: consider getting outside help inivolved?
flow, please don't apologise for long posts, it's all useful 
You mean someone's beaten me to it, Pacific? Dammit, I'd just started planning my literary career with scwirrels as my agent !
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