Just discovered 15yo niece is pg, in --nightmare-- tricky circumstances, it's v long but we need all the help we can get

[phdlife]

My sister's been going through hell with my niece, who is extremely bright, doing very well at school, popular, talented performer, musical, etc. Her parents have always, as near as I can tell, been textbook parents: they are clear and consistent about where the boundaries are, they are on the stricter side but not unreasonable.

Earlier in the year dniece had several life-threatening medical emergencies; not long after she decided she hated her parents and all that they stand for. (Imho, this is a reaction to the medical dramas, which analytical, thoughtful, articulate niece has never felt need to discuss .) But she has been increasingly vicious and rebellious - coming home with tongue pierced, etc. She went from wanting to do a dual degree in law/economics to wanting to quit school at the end of Year 10 and go caravanning round the country as a masseuse. She has said she's only waiting til she's old enough to legally leave and then she wants nothing to do with her family ever again.

Then she took one small, followed 2 weeks later by a larger, OD of paracetamol and has since been under the care of a psychologist. At the start of this month she was seen by a psychiatrist, which is protocol for an OD; in less than 40mins he decided that she needed ADs and offered this without discussion with dsis. Dsis, an RN, was against this on grounds that he couldn't possibly have made a correct diagnosis in that time, and indeed some of the evidence he used was deeply flawed. (For example, dniece complained of interrupted sleep patterns; dsis points out that she has itemised phone bills showing niece sending texts at 1 and 2 a.m., and that otherwise her sleep is just dandy.) (She was allowed to keep phone in room only after the OD.)

Dsis baffled; niece is still doing all normal social things, singing round house, bringing home the A's etc - she can even be quite nice, friendly, chatty, lovely to her mum - can she really be depressed? She thinks dniece is going through normal teenage rebellion, dressed up with her characteristic flair for drama. She can see that niece has been enjoying the fuss, likes having time off school and is enjoying battle of wits with therapist; Dsis and I both suspect niece is winning. I think this is all bluff and cover for deeper issues (near-death experiences) that have not been properly addressed. Dsis has been looking for another psychiatrist to get 2nd opinion.

Anyway. That background stuff is important, I think.

Then there's the relationship. He's 18 now, they've been together 8m but friends long before that, he has been through a difficult time thrown out of home a few months ago, my dsis always been very straight with him that she liked and supported him but she would kill him if he touched niece (not to mention the law). Because niece is such a reader, she thinks she is as mature as this kid and has not understood why she isn't treated the same. Apparently they used a condom, which broke, and it was the boy's advice to wait and see what happened instead of going for morning-after pill.

Dsis is completely devastated. Her trust has been shattered twice (by her dd and by the lad); she has tried so hard to balance between her values and instinct and niece's increasingly vitriolic, histrionic demands for more freedom. (Niece has always argued she doesn't drink/do drugs/have sex, so her parents should trust her more - and this was probably true until about 5 weeks ago.) Dsis is still in shock - has only known for 24hrs - but does not feel she can support her dd through this and sees only one option. Niece has already stated that if her parents give her a hard time about it, she'll emancipate herself. They are supposed to be going to family planning clinics tomorrow to discuss options but dsis is terrified that dniece, whose judgement she considers severely impaired at this stage, will only hear that she'll get gov't support for a baby and not realise any of the rest of it.

I am horrified and heartbroken for dsis, sorry and horrified for dniece. (Would also like to give her light slap upside the head.) But my gut feeling is that although dsis has done all she can - not perfect, by any means, but always striving to act thoughtfully, be informed, be open, etc. - you cannot make your child do what you want, and that it would be far worse, in the long long run, for either (a) all ties to be severed, (b) niece to feel she was pushed into a decision, or (c) niece to make a decision to spite parents. I know it's easy for me to say - it's not my child after all - but I don't see this as the worst fate that could possibly befall her. It sucks, for sure, but she's still alive and still here

Dniece has always said she likes me and admires me; dsis has always thought dniece was like me (bookish, critical, analytic mind, some slight indie hue - similarity ends there!). But she hasn't contacted me at all through any of this and although I did text her a few times, I haven't worked as hard as I should have. I'm thinking there's possibly a role for me here if I can get that door open, but I also feel the need to support my sister, I just would appreciate any advice at all as to how dsis and I can get this right...

oh and it's bedtime now, so it'll be a while before I can get back here. sorry to post and run!

[weevilswobble]

@ nailak

[nailak]

I liked your post weevil to me it made sense.

I can't understand how anyone could think pressuring their dd to abort could possibly be good parenting

[weevilswobble]

Sorry, my out of control tourettes syndrome getting the better of me.
Feck
Feck
Feck
ARSE

[weevilswobble]

I dont think mummytime used the word Utopia.
And whats wrong with aiming for an ideal? Hey! Guess what? Some families are fuelled by love for each other. Shock horror.

[scaryteacher]

I responded to a post you've made - and disagreed with you - how is that having a problem with you? I don't think there is a right way to parent - and how you do so is dependent upon your own family dynamic, your own upbringing and your own views.

I don't think utopia is attainable, and I fail to see why the parents should have to put their lives on hold for things to work out 'eventually'. I get annoyed with the school of parenting that is always skewed in favour of the needs of the child; they have to learn eventually that the world does not revolve around them and their needs, and the sooner the better imo, otherwise they will come up against problems as adults.

I can see how the OPs dsis feels; that everything they have given their daughter has been rejected, and now she wants to reject them too. There has to be an alternative to the parents rolling over and having their tummies tickled because it suits the DD. It's the emotional blackmail that pisses me off having been on the receiving end from my late father and my mil. Not playing takes the wind right out of their sails.

[mummytime]

Scary just what is your problem with me? Yes its Utopian but why not aim for Utopia.
And in my larger family I know several people have been in this situation, but by discussing the options rather than "telling the teen" what to do, things have worked out (eventually).

Is this something that particularly affects you? Is that why my suggestions rile you so much?

BTW this situation sounds very very different from the other teenage "pregnancy" thread.

If my daughter was in this situation and threatened to "emancipate" herself, I would tell her to go ahead, and help her investigate the costs and the benefits she would be entitled to. Actually I even know the Mother and baby home I would show her.

[scaryteacher]

How nice to live in Utopia Mummytime. Not every family works that way, or depending on what has gone wrong, can work that way. Sure, she has the right to choose not to have a termination, but her parents also have the right to make her stand on her own two feet and get on with it as an adult, and to choose not to bend over backwards for her. She can have her own way, but she is going to have to deal with what that means without expecting that her parents will put their lives on hold for her.

It seems to me that an awful lot of emotional blackmail is going on, on the part of the daughter , threatening to 'emancipate' herself, if her parents don't fall into line with what she wants. Explain to me why they should?

[Abcinthia]

Does she know any teenage parents, or would it be possible for her to talk to any (say at a teenage mother and baby group?). It might change the way your neice views the pregnancy, especially when told by someone near her own age, and might get her to take it more seriously.

The housing isn't just given on a golden platter. Some of my friends had to live in some awful places (grotty conditions or the people who were also housed there had problems such as alcholism or drug addictions). I was lucky because my parents supported me (even though they were horribly disapointed that I got pregnant at 16) and I could live at home until I'd finished college and saved up enough to move out.

[mummytime]

So Scary are you saying a "woman's right to choose" means all teenagers have to have an abortion?
Sorry but my views are that families work together even when things go wrong. In this case a teen who has had a lot of shocks, and probably rather younger than most people has become forced to face the fact of her own mortality. She may well be feeling if she hasn't got long to live (and knowing teenagers this may well be her reaction however true it is or not); then she might as well live life to the full. Even if that means: sex, drugs and rock n roll. She may even want to keep the baby as a way of making sure something of her lives on.
However her parents instead of going for family counselling, and a chance to discuss this (rather than probably argue about it), are deciding her future for her.
Yes they could break her illusion of getting a nice flat and living on benefits. They could get her to discuss her options with someone outside the family. Maybe even have a family meeting with her boyfriends family. But I think taking the attitude that she "can't get her own way" is making a rod for their own back. What are they going to do if she continues not to listen to them? Are they going to throw her out onto the streets? Or what?

[Buttons2708]

OMG this is me as a teenager! I also took several overdoses as a teenager and at 19 fell pregnant. My dad hated it and told me he was taking me for an abortion I ran to my mum's (150 miles away) and made my own decision. My BF at the time stuck by me and we went on to have 2 more children. Although we are no longer together (he's an arse and a whole other thread) my life has not been bad.

My advice would be this....support, love and guidance. With no one being judgemental she may surprise you all. I had to do it all alone at 19 and I would of killed for help from family. It was terrible and damn hard! Don't get me wrong I understand the worry and disappointment, being a mum of a 12 year old DD it scares the hell out of me.

I hope this helps x

[scaryteacher]

Whilst I agree one should try to support one's child, when it will have an impact like this on the whole family, I don't blame the parents for trying to steer the daughter in a particular way.

Mummytime - I don't think they sound too controlling as parents of a teen - there is not and never has been, a 'right' way to parent a teenager. What works for one doesn't for another. As for 'what is wrong with children sometimes getting their own way?', the answer is lots, depending on what you let them have their own way with. Them having their own way doesn't mean that everyone else's life should be thrown into turmoil, especially with all the problems that this lass having a baby could bring.

[3rdOneComingUp]

similar to tourettes weevil?

[weevilswobble]

Ellisbell, it might fall on your deaf ears, but its not you i'm talking to. I feel compelled to say what i believe.

[mummytime]

Sorry but a unplanned/unwanted pregnancy shouldn't come as a "terrible shock" to any parent. I have certainly thought about this scenario, and how I would calm myself to respond rationally (and my kids aren't that age/at all likely to be in that situation at present).
Now if my son came home and told me he'd killed someone I would be "terribly shocked".

[ellisbell]

weelilswobble your post is not helpful.

phdlife perhaps we're being a bit harsh on your dsis, it undoubtably comes as a terrible shock to any parent and they have hopefully had time to calm down and rethink a bit.

[3rdOneComingUp]

weevil

phd, hope you're feeling abit more confident today and get to speak to your DN.

[weevilswobble]

HAVING A BABY IS NOT EVIL.

'The Lord works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform'

The story of Adam and Eve is about turning away from the perfect will of God. DN has had the courage to act with her heart and is about to start the next chapter of her life on her terms.
Take some time on this First Sunday of Advent to pray for the lives of all concerned to be filled with Love and to obey Gods loving and perfect will.

[Notnapping]

I agree with paintingyoubynumbers (nit about the adoption that in my opinion wouldn't be an option once dn had gone through the pg) but the rest of chester's post is sick and if you think the abortions taught her a lesson you will prob have another thing coming ....

Anyway there was a remarkably similar situation in my family last year the girl(x) was 15 and preg it is suspected by me and other members of family that it was on purpose guy was 20. Mother (a) didn't want to bring up the baby herself and father (b) sat in his living room refusing to talk to her saying when tried to suggest ways she could bring up the baby no were getting this thing terminated. A also tried refusing support ie you cant live here when the baby is born whilst telling the social workershe could they also limited things like Internet and tv. And told her she couldn't get a job if she had the baby cause they wouldn't look after the baby and Nurserys were only for people who went to college or had careers like doctors( she didn't no any different. They tried playing the police card too. played the your getting fat card .

She continued the pg not talking to them about scans etc (they found pics looking through her things. Eventually a started buying her clothes make up etc..... Promised they'd buy her a holiday, car, and redecorate her room ( but obv they couldn't do this if she had a baby)

She terminated she must have been abbot 14/15 weeks I think.

They didn't tell the rest of the family it was happening till after the event to make sure she went through with it.


Guess what she still has the possible mental health problems they've been ignoring for years and she's blaming them for getting rid of the baby (they've not gone through with their promised bribes btw and telling everyone who'll listen so a says to her no one made you get rid so why are you blaming me?

I find the whole thing sick.

[mummytime]

I think this sounds like a huge cry for help. I'm afraid your Dsis and BIL sound far too controlling for parents of a teenager.
If they are not willing to admit they may be handling this all wrong, and seek some help, then I am afraid they are definitely part of the problem.
What is wrong with children sometimes getting their own way?
The way your DSis is handling this will lead to alienation from her duaghter. Either they effectively chuck her out because she is pregnant, or she comes to hate them because "they forced her" to have an abortion.
Maybe she wants to have the baby to escape the pressures to do well at school? To be treated like an adult by her parents? To get freedom?
Parenting teenagers is hard, but they need support, and closing the door on counselling (maybe because the counsellor says something your DSis doesn't want to hear) is not the way to go.

[ellisbell]

sorry, have to agree with the others that this is being handled very badly and will push the girl into keeping the baby.

The role of parents is to support and encourage their child. They need to ensure she understands what life would be like as a teenage parent but threatening to disown her is not how to do that. I would be disgusted if my sister acted like that and would certainly want to get involved in helping the child. The most important thing you can do is help your Dsis to realise she needs to back off, be less controlling and support her child to make her own choice, even if Dsis thinks it the wrong one. She needs to work on educating her child about the consequences, not make the decision for her.

The type of accommodation available to teenage mothers varies - I know of one who has a small flat in a building with some support, not sure of the details but it's a building with various teenage mothers. They cannot stay there for long and will be moved on. Someone needs to find out what is available locally and take this child to see it. It will not be what she is used to and talking to other young mothers, some who boyfriends will have left, will give her a more realistic picture. Someone also needs to ask her to consider what it will be like raising a child alone, it sounds unlikely she can rely on the boy. Her parents should also be arranging to take her to the gp and see she has those vitamins. That is allowing her to make her own choice but trying to see it is no worse than it has to be. She needs to be told how much money she'd have to live on, it certainly won't cover $50 meals!

Your DN certainly can be depressed. Texting at 1 and 2 a.m could be because she can't sleep, it doesn't sound like her parents really understand depression at all. Her illness is likely to have resulted in some problems keeping up at school and she may have found the parental expectations a problem. There may be deeper issues but that doesn't mean ADs may not help, if there are some suitable for pregnancy. Family therapy sounds urgently needed to help the parents see they are in the wrong here.

I'd be speaking to DN too and offering her my support with any decision she makes, while making it clear that it would be an extremely difficult road if she does opt to have the baby.

[Finallygotaroundtoit]

I agree with weevil but don't agree your DSis has been a good parent, sadly;

A pyschiatrist said your DN needed treatment for depression but your Dsis disagreed so DN didn't get treated

The family clearly need therapy but DSis disagrees so no therapy

DSis will support DN, but only to do what DSis wants and get an abortion.
If this isn't what DN wants it could be the end of their relationship.

The help your DN needs is support to decide what she wants to do about pregnancy, treatment for her depression and family therapy

[weevilswobble]

Forcing your daughter to have an abortion? That is foul. Teaching her a lesson?

[springboksaplenty]

phd I am so sorry this has happened. I can understand completely where your dsis is coming from but she needs to step out of her emotional response and start acting practically. By giving her only one 'choice' she is almost pushing her dd into the opposite reaction. As another poster said, as hard as it is, she needs to make things 'real' for her dd. at the moment it's not having a baby, but rebelling against her parents. Treat her as the adult she so wants to be.

I certainly wouldn't want to make a young woman choose an abortion just to appease her parents. Fine short term there won't be a baby but longterm, whether it was the right thing to do or not, her dd may never forgive her parents and it implies that their love is conditional - don't fuck up because if you do we won't support you.

I am forever grateful to my mom for marching me down to the GP to go on the pill aged 15. I had a older bf but was adamant we werent having sex. My mom was realistic enough to know that teenagers can get carried away and better be safe than sorry. I certainly hope that I can be that pragmatic with my own dc when they are at that age.

[weevilswobble]

Rough, we're thinking exactly the same.
I had a shotgun wedding, my lovely 18 yr old is the oldest of all the grandchildren and the favourite. She came from my heart not my head, and is the focus, meaning and purpose of my life.

[oooggs]

Phd no idea really but just wanted to add support