Two girl rabbits, a lovely cosy nest of fur....and a pinky bald patch :(

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

Rabbit Experts! can you help?- sorry looooooong

we inherited two does from dcs friends last year- PAH had sold them too many in one go (don't get me started on PAH grrrrr)

they've been fine though not very handlable- one girl is obviously a bit bossier/braver than the other, the other a bit meeker. Not much tho- if I put say a couple of broccoli stalks in they'll eat one together (eg lady and the tramp) then move on to the next one

at the moment they're not themselves. Both off their food- they're eating but generally VERY motivated by grub (they start doing laps of their run whenever they hear the back door open, usually) and not as interested at the mo. Not bothered with their toys either, and don't want to go in their hutch at night, prefer to stay in run

They have made a lovely nest in there, it's a work of art I would sleep in it if I could fit in there -both of their fur is in there, but more of the meek one's, I think (different colours)

we thought they were moulting due to all the lovely snowy fluff drifting across the garden- but now think hair pulling/nesting (no chance preggo unless they have a 1 year gestation period)

noticed today the meek one has a 50p sized bald patch near her tail and the bossy one is a bit tufty in same place

do we think nesting for phantom preg/s? or dominating? Or both?

heeeeelp meeeeeeee

tia

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

Me too Rosie

I thought, when we inherited them, that the girls were big enough at 11 to not only take an interest but actually LOVE having them-of course they were desperate to have them, they loved them, they were big girls, would do everything themselves etc etc etc

They did at first, but then the weather got crap, girls too busy and so on (rabbits still had a lot of attention, but only from me-I'm home all day, so they still had plenty of stimulation. But still)

The other day, after one bun had been sitting on her lap, a dd squeezed my arm and said you were right!! The more you put into em the more you get out!

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

Just a quick update-

We've been leaving them out in the run all night (no sign of any fox digging-although am being super careful as there's now a fox family under next door's shed)

The pinky bald patch is.now.covered with a little dusting of white fluff AAAWWW- no more hair pulling as far as I can tell

Been watching them very closely over last week or so-so have my dds. Not really apparent that one is dominating the other-there's a lot of mutual grooming and a little bit of mutual chasing

Anyway, they're booked in with the vet to be spayed and afterwards we'll get them another meter for their run (they have 3-might be four- already, but it's stuffed with toys, tunnels, logs, hidey holes etc)

Dds are now taking a much more active role in interacting with them, rather than just letting them run about while they get on with something else

So all in all-a win

Thanks all

[Zebedah]

I don't want to derail the thread any further so we will agree to disagree on pinning

[PartyShit]

I don't see how that advice is relevant to someone querying why their bun is nest building and showing dominance to another rabbit! Very odd. You have absolutely nothing to gain from 'pinning' a rabbit but the rabbit becoming afraid of you and, perhaps, then being submissive to you through fear. Certainly wouldn't make a bun easier to work with.

Rabbits are not pack animals in the sense that a human must assert their dominance in order to become leader of the pack. Unless you plan on living in the hutch with them and joining them in nibbling their hay and veggies from the floor or you're worried about them devouring you in your sleep or mounting your female (wolf pack style), then there really is no need to worry about making sure your bun knows you're the dominant one.

[PartyShit]

Hello

I'm a rabbit-bonder for a local rescue (office worker by day, Super Rabbit Bonder by night) and I have many buns of my own. One of my girls has been a serial nest builder for some time and it is always connected to something, it's her way of telling me something isn't right. Sometimes buns will pluck fur because of parasites, usually fleas or mites, so just have a good old rummage around her fur and particularly at the base of the tail.

My lady now does it because she has dental problems, it's her way of coping with the discomfort of her sore teeth and because she can't eat her veggies she seems to distract herself with the fur pulling. When you get them spayed, just ask for a full check on their gums and teeth too.

The dominance thing will not stop until the buns are spayed. Some bunnies can have a wonderful bond which is then ruined because of hormones causing fighting. Again, back to the teeth/parasite/something underlying going on idea, one bun might just be grumpy because she's not feeling great so taking it out on the other. Spaying is expensive but definitely worth it purely for the cancer risks if left unspayed.

You could help with the scruffy looking fur by giving them a good groom, if you can't brush them just stroke them vigorously with damp hands. A lot of fur build up in the stomach from grooming can cause all kinds of gi problems and could be putting them off their food. They are complex little creatures and they do hide things well.

Definitely agree with never pinning a rabbit - why on earth would you want to do that?? Give them enough space and attention, there's no need to even handle them - rabbits aren't there to be picked up and cuddled, get down on their level and let them explore you. I've seen lots of accidents and some deaths from rabbits being picked up and mishandled, it's just unnecessary. Sorry for long post! Good luck.

[cherrypepsimax]

Have read the link on pinning - I think you need to bear in mind that it is written by a breeder. We are talking about family pets here. I agree firm and confident handling can help in these situations because the rabbits certainly can learn that if they lunge / growl / bite that you will go away, but I would not suggest pinning them, especially to a new owner. Pinning them will not remove some of the issues that cause them to behave aggressively either, and could perhaps make it worse.

Spaying them will help with hormonal behaviour. Giving them the correct environment (they have access to a safe exercise area at all times, they have a healthy diet based on hay / grass) so that they are happy, healthy and busy eating hay will also help.

I have never ever pinned my any of my rabbits and I have had plenty of 'aggressive' rescues that have all become lovely pets when they have been treated as rabbits - who are complex, sociable, athletic and intelligent animals.

Good luck :-)

[Helenluvsrob]

You sure you haven't had a stray wild bunny in the garden having his wicked way ?

[cherrypepsimax]

Optional pain relief!?

If they are in pain they will not eat, and then the go in a stasis and then you are in big trouble, pain relief is not optional...

Ask them how many they have done, how many they have lost, do they intubate (they should) do they use a pulse oximeter to monitor them (they should).

When you say lock them in the eglu, do you mean just the plastic bit? If so, is it an old fashioned eglu or one of the fancy new ones which are a bit bigger? The old style eglus are really too small to lock them in over night, especially as they are most active dusk and dawn. Can you leave them with access to the run, if you are worried about the cold maybe put a tarpaulin over it or something like that?

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

We have no outbuildings at all, can't bring them indoors either because dogs

I think the run is pretty fox proof-all double pinned down etc. No sign of any fox digging since we first put it up and one made half hearted attempt to dig by their house. And yet. If there was one clever enough and willing to put the hours in to dig NEAR the skirt, it could do it

Fucking foxes gah (I loved the foxes. Once)

[ClashCityRocker]

They are indeed - from what I've read, their social structure is far more complex than say dogs for example.

Btw, I've heard bad things about the vets associated with PAH (is it Vets4Pets?) so I'd ask around first to make sure your local one is ok.

Do you have a garage or something you can put a run in overnight or a shed or outhouse you can bunnyproof?

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

meek one is too lazy to be top dog I feel

the other one has more application and conviction

God they're complicated little fellers, aren't they

[ClashCityRocker]

They probably haven't worked out who's top dog either - I think that might be the problem

Do check for mites/fleas too.

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

I can't work out who's top dog here. They both groom each other as far as I can see

The bossy one does chase the meek one off sometimes, though

OH asked about neutering at PAH. They said 85 each, 15 more for optional pain relief



Optional!!!

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

Thanks for all the info! I'm working it out while watching them carefully

I've just had a slap forehead with hand moment

OH went to let them out of their house first thing-he said they looked fine but a bit scruffy

We lock them in their eglu every night about 11ish, out again at 6. It's a bit of a pita to be honest but it's to keep them warm and dry/safe from foxes-there are gazillions of urban foxes round here. This must be prime hair pulling time (awake, bored)

I dont know whether to wait till its warmer and just leave them out all night, or maybe do it now. They seem tough as old boots but who knows with little animals. Hmmmm.

[cherrypepsimax]

Thanks for those links I'll read them later

[Zebedah]

I agree re grooming as a dominance show too; having had several rabbits with behavioural issues I can assure you pinning between rabbits exists, and pinning to assert dominance works.
Maybe we should agree to disagree on this cherry but here's some light reading:
States pinning as a method to stop biting: articles.extension.org/pages/58781/rabbit-behavioral-problems:-biting
States pet rabbits and wild rabbits pin using their heads to assert dominance:
www.barneyandjemima.co.uk/communication/rabbit-territory.html
In a book about raising rabbits, also discussing pinning to assert dominance:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=sPolAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=rabbits+pinning+for+dominance&source=bl&ots=RR_ID0r0GA&sig=ARgkJHZEgKL-38JIrNEPJpt_Grs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqrJnR7rHMAhXFC8AKHWcTCBoQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=rabbits%20pinning%20for%20dominance&f=false

Hope you get your girls happy and healthy soon OP!

[cherrypepsimax]

It's not correct about the pinning. A dominant bunny will put their head under the subordinate bunny and demand a head rub./ face wash. Ive heard all sorts of nonsense but this pinning is a new one on me. If you can find any credible reference for that Id be genuinely interested.

Make sure you pick a good rabbit vet, one that is confident to do the aneasthetic, intubates while they are under, and uses a pulse oximeter to monitor them.

Good luck :)

[ClashCityRocker]

Here's a good site about the language of Lagomorphs...


language.rabbitspeak.com

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

I can't say it's never crossed my mind Lancelottie

[Lancelottie]

I so hope it's the rabbits you're having spayed after payday...

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

THANK YOU Rabbit People

there's so much to go on here

re puberty. When I noticed the bald bit/cosy nest full of fluff the other day, googled it and found 'phantom pregnancy' I couldn't help but draw parallels between these 12mo girls and my hormone rushing 12 yo twins

unpredictable and moody-check
not interested in usual stuff-check
hair pulling-check
getting testy with/trying to dominate each other one minute-check
grooming each other the next-check

and BOTH their bedrooms are a state at least the bunnies aren't telling me they need iphones or their lives are over so they're my favourites

we're going to have them spayed after payday and have the vet look them over

thanks again all