What Is Reasonable?

[FiveHappyFrogs]

Hi,

Sorry I'm new to this but I will try get everything across so please bear with me!

DH and I are trying to draw up a parenting plan for him and DSS mother to suggest to her. DSS is 7. DSS mother is very hostile towards DH and the purpose of said plan is to hopefully reduce conflict between them.

The longest DSS has ever spent with us consecutively is 3 nights - her choice. She also will not permit him to go on holiday with us.

I've seen here before and feel a need to say that DH and I have been together for 5 years and we have a child of our own. I was not the OW, she left him and we got together about a year after their split.

DH is going to propose taking DSS EOW Friday from school until Monday morning again at school. He is also going to suggest half of the holidays for Easter and summer. EXW is happy for OH to take DSS over holidays because it helps with childcare but she does not want it to be in consecutive nights more than 3 nights at a time because she misses him too much. Even when he is with us for 2/3 nights DH is bombarded with text messages and phone calls during that time which is really intrusive in to his time with DSS and in all honestly puts a fair amount of strain on our relationship.

I suppose my main question is how much contact do you think is reasonable with resident parent when child is with non resident parent? We're trying to go to email rather than texts. Would you say one email a day when he is with us is sufficient to suggest? Should he be phoning her during that time? For more extended time we are going to try get a consecutive week - how much is reasonable then? And how often would DSS be expected to be in contact with her eg. Via video call? Obviously if DSS wants or asked to phone his mum we would never say no to that - but he's never asked before, it is her who insists we set time aside to make him phone her.

Does anybody have any experience of what main points should be covered for a parenting plan of a 7 year old in a situation where ideally we'd have as much limited / indirect contact with EXW while having as much time with DSS as is reasonable.

Thanks in advance. Sorry if any of that was unclear!

[HollyGoLoudly]

@FiveHappyFrogs

Your posts are almost an exact mirror of what we have been through. Everything you have requested sounds totally fair and reasonable, but from my experience it doesn't matter how fair/reasonable your access request is - unless the EXW is willing to agree.

The EXW is our situation didn't agree, access has been inconsistent for years now (depending on how well EXW and DP are getting on that particular month) and it feels like there is pretty much nothing we can do about it. Things came to a bit of a head when we decided to try for our own DC and wanted a set agreement with more contact (because we miss DSD, so the siblings can bond and so we can actually plan things in advance!). We saw 2 different lawyers last year who told us we would have to accept what little contact we are given, as even though we would almost certainly be granted an order, we could in no way afford to take it to court. We're (only just) over the threshold for legal aid and now have our own DC on the way and can't afford even a fraction of what we were told it could potentially cost to get a court order.

Hope you have more luck than we did!

[takeittakeit]

OP - go to whatsapp.
My Ex calls at the most inconvenient times - getting kids out the door to school, bathtime etc etc - every day 2-3 times per day!! If he did not get a repsonse, land line e mail text etc!

I now send him pics messages regualrly, encourage eldest to send him stuff spontaneously and he has calmed down a little and if he does not get a reply - at least can see the ticks have it delivered and when it has been seen.

Contact is still ad oc and after 4.5 yrs I have given up expecting anything different. I organise stuff andwaste monies because he can not get his act together but at the end of the day - my DCS are happy. The rest is irrelevant.

The comments summer time child care and being easier for her from some people -really annoy me. I can't have DCs because I do not get enough time off work for half the holidays - yada yada yada. Neither do most RPs - if you have the SDCs for half the holidays and their DF is at work - then there are enough kids activity days to occupy them till he comes home. That is what most working RPs have to do.

summer is 2 weeks away with me - then we rotate weeks of drama, football, cricket, tennis etc etc. It costs monies but guess what the RP is not free childcare for the NRP who wants more time but only when they can fit it in.

I used to miss my DCS alot on the few occasions they were with their DF. It is now better but I do like the odd whats app message especially in the evening. When you do 90% of the caring and responsibility it is hard to give up that control.

[DelphiniumBlue]

Of the reality is that DH works shifts , then any parenting proposal needs to take that into account. It could include a formula by which notice of the shifts is given/ calculated.

As you say, if fixed arrangements mean that D'S is pa rented by you, then that's not re ally for his benefit. It's lovely that you are happy to help out and step into the breach, but D'S will want tosee his Dad.
ExE sounds As if she is very anxious. D'S is still quite young . I've noticed that in many families who live together, the mother is often more sensitive to perceived danger to the child than the father. Parents often disagree regarding freedom/ responsibility/safety even when they are together, and for an anxious parent it must be torture seeing photos of your child in what you consider to be potentially unsafe situation s, knowing that the person taking the phtoo hasn't seen the issue.
Not sure what you can do about her anxiety, but might be worth considering what reassurance she needs?

[DaffoDeffo]

Every other weekend and half holidays is totally normal and reasonable

[FiveHappyFrogs]

@DuchyDuke Sorry again, just re-read. She's said that overnights with school the next day won't be agreed to. He'd happily do midweek overnights if this was an option.

[FiveHappyFrogs]

@NorthernSpirit Thank you... I've taken a lot of what you've said on board and appreciate your help.

It would seem he's okay to watch his child when she wants him to, but otherwise not.

She's asked for a routine now she says she doesn't want one. Very confusing.

[FiveHappyFrogs]

Also @DuchyDuke the mediation agreement was that the child would phone mum on child's request.

Child never requested and when asked didn't want to phone.

In the meantime DH was sending at least 2 updates by text per day.

[FiveHappyFrogs]

Hi @DuchyDuke it's every other weekend he has proposed, not every weekend. He's asked for Friday - Monday EOW but she's saying overnights will happen when she says they can go ahead but not restricted to a pattern.

She's also said for the sake of routine Sunday nights are out of the question because her care needs to be predictable - to me this would suggest a pattern of overnights would be better than just as and when she decides?

We have our child in our home so routine would be in everybody's interests.

She has also said that she will not agree to anything which is "ad hoc" on his part meaning he can't see him through the week because he doesn't know his shifts more than 3 months in advance so not possible to do through the week even though he would want that.

@Spottytop1 Thank you for that suggestion, it's not that he's deliberately ignoring, moreso just that we often will make a point of going out without phones. We do this regularly to avoid distraction, but it might be worth considering not doing this to start with

[NorthernSpirit]

Glad you are making progress OP.

As picking up the phone when she demands or responding to texts immediately - you don’t have to answer to her. The woman sounds a control freak.

Mum doesn’t need to message to check the child is ok. And you don’t need to send photos or videos - you are pandering to her control and insecurities. It’s in the care of dad - what better care? Makes me laugh..... it’s ok for dads to only see their kids EOW but god forbid mum would go without contact everyday and get updates!

[Spottytop1]

I think what your dh is asking for us totally reasonable but I do think your dh should have his phone on him and not go out without it.

If I message to ask how my dc is, I'd be very upset if I had to wait hours for a reply because my ex has purposely chosen to not take their phone.
Put it on silent and reply when convenient.

Also initially send photos once or twice a day or send a video or voice message, then reduce when she is confident. That way she can't claim you aren't keeping her informed.

[DuchyDuke]

Why is your dh asking if it’s ok to call mum? Your dh should just do it, as it was agreed in mediation, and tell his ds to speak to her for a few minutes. Parenting sometimes involves making tough decisions

[DuchyDuke]

I think every weekend and half the holidays is unfair on the mum to be honest. She might want to enjoy him on weekends and holidays too. If you and your DH is serious about this propose at least two night mid-week and every other weekend. Look at it from the perspective of your son - how would you feel doing the grunt work (school runs etc) mid-week only for the nrp to get all the fun time?

[FiveHappyFrogs]

As it happens, DSS was playing with cousins when we got back and he seen the messages...

DH casually mentioned "XX will we phone your mum?"

"No"

Yeah I think she'd be glad to hear from you

"No"

Text EXW and it was him influencing him. He was just busy playing. Genuinely.

[FiveHappyFrogs]

This would be a beautiful scenario if it would work in practice...

It would be lovely if DSS wanted to speak to mum every night and would always be facilitated... but she wants HIM (DH) to give updates. She wants HIM to stop what he's doing and text her when she texts. She wants him to say "mums phoning come we'll answer"

We left phones at home when we were out at the park on holiday (UK holiday, 4 nights, had to go to mediation to get it agreed) and when we came home there was 3 missed calls and a text saying "Phoned. Unanswered. Not what was agreed in mediation that you would answer my calls if I phoned. Will not be taking XX away again. Disgusted by your behaviour. NOTED!!"

He didn't even have his phone on him 🙈

[Feb2018mumma]

The most time I spent from my mum to be with my dad and step mum was a 2 week holiday and I called her before bed every night and that was it :) to be honest don't think she wanted to speak to them and would rather wait for me to see how my day was!

[FiveHappyFrogs]

He's recently been in touch with a solicitor because I think he really needs to get it black and white official what needs to happen going forward...

I'm so glad I discovered Mumsnet to be honest, because for a long time I'd just accepted it is what it is. It didn't sit comfortably with me, but neither DH or I realised he had any other choice other than to put up and shut up which seems ridiculous on hindsight. I think it was coming on here and reading the perspective of other people that has pushed me (and as a result him) to take action.

It's a long road ahead and it's definitely getting worse in the meantime, but I can now realistically see it getting better in the end.

Just as an update: EXW solicitor has asked for a "firm contact proposal" DH has obliged in providing this. Now EXW is saying to him via email that they should go back to not firm and that firm is not in child's interests. It's a bloody mess... and i would find it hilarious if I wasn't so closely involved

[DaffoDeffo]

You have to fight this legally it's ridiculous. She's using the child as a weapon. Both exh and I missed our kids when they weren't with us but neither of us would dream about insisting on phone calls or pestering the child to make contact because that would be about OUR needs and not the dcs. Even now almost 8 years post divorce and the dcs are older, exh will sometimes contact me and say ds hasn't spoken to me for a while, how is he, and I will fill him in because ultimately it's about their welfare and we are the adults!

I despair reading these stories of selfish adults using their dcs as weapons.

[FiveHappyFrogs]

@Mamatribe With the exception of age, I could have written that post myself!

We too have been told no overnights on a school night, and have been told that "she agrees" to him starting to take Friday - Sunday then this will not be from school - Pick up will be from her home so she can get changed first and say goodbye before going away for 2 nights

She trusts him enough to take DSS for 2 full (not consecutive) weeks during summer though for childcare purposes... but not EOW This is new. A week has never been agreed before so we'll see how that goes and if DSS cries when it's time to go home as always.

Where do these people come from?

[Mamatribe]

We have had the same issue with the ex! She won’t allow Husband to have his DD for more than 1-2 nights (at a push) and we def have never been allowed to have her on a school night as apparently it’s too unsettling for her and she would be too tired - her mother phones her all the time when she’s at our home asking her if she’s ok etc even when she’s not sleeping over (his dd is 12!) which is fine she is her dd but it infringes upon time spent between her and her dad when she’s scuttling off to go answer her mobile phone in secret- one time she didn’t answer her phone straight away and we all heard her apologising profusely to her Mum over the phone which was upsetting to hear tbh

[NorthernSpirit]

@Magda72 - no problem you referencing me.

Yes, my OH went through 2 years of hell of the EW dictating contact and using the children as weapons. My OH wasn’t allowed to speak or see the children on their birthdays, or for Christmas etc as the mum would miss them too much.

After 2 years he said enough was enough (she had said unless he gave her a substantial lump sum of money then he wasn’t seeing the kids).

Solicitors will say or write anything a paying client will tell them too.

He took the EW to court and got a very defined contact order. The EW has breached the order and he takes her back to court for breaching. Last time they went a judge told her that if she continued to stop the children seeing their father he would take the children off the mother and they would live with the dad.

Courts are very pro contact. The court will take a very dim view that the mother has stopped contact for such a petty reason.

Go to court. It’s the only way to stop the control and pettiness. My OH wishes he hadn’t wasted 2 years.

[Smeddum]

@FiveHappyFrogs unfortunately speaking to many extremely distressed parents during the course of child welfare hearings in the waiting room, immoral and toadying solicitors aren’t uncommon it seems.

Mine was completely ineffectual and I’m still angry that his crapness had a long lasting and detrimental effect on DS1. I shall always be angry about it, because it’s my child’s life they messed with. But they don’t have to witness the repercussions of their actions, I do, and DS1 has to live with them too.

Have a feel around locally for a good family law solicitor, and I wish you the best of luck in trying to get things resolved for your DSS and your family

[FiveHappyFrogs]

@Smeddum Oh my god! Maybe they have the same solicitor?

I'll get him to phone his lawyer tomorrow. Give me strength, honestly.

[Smeddum]

I do agree it sounds like you’ve no other option than legal advice unfortunately OP. It’s a shame it’s come to that, but if she won’t cooperate or act in your DSSs best interests you’ve not really been left with any other route to go down.

[Smeddum]

@FiveHappyFrogs family law solicitors are (no pun intended) a law unto themselves.

XH was confidently told by his solicitor that he’d get full custody, strip me of my parental rights and that his utter lack of any kind of attempt to parent wasn’t an issue! That he’d “tried his best” and basically tried to paint me as a wicked harridan point scoring!

[FiveHappyFrogs]

@Smeddum Would a solicitor put their clients in that position of knowing if it went to court that they'd be accountable though? I would have thought they had a duty to say to their clients that it won't look good on them the course of action they're taking? It doesn't seem right what's shes doing but it it is the solicitor letter that's making me think - well they're saying that's fine so if it wasn't they'd be advising her against it?

I think probably legal advice is what he needs to be honest, dont think we're cut out to do this ourselves. I really appreciate the comments / help guys!