How much contact...

[croquet]

would you expect a NRP who lives two hours away to have with teen kids?

[daisychain01]

petal you are right, its all so rigid, rules by the book, that I have worried over the time I have been with DH and DSS that it is a very artificial set up, but even in its imperfection, the great part through all the struggle is that DSS has a strong relationship with both parents. It is hopefully something that he will remember fondly and not the fractious tensions that happened when we had to pick him up, before having the current alternate week pattern The seamless transfer via the bus, makes it calmer!

[Petal02]

Daisy whilst ideally nature would take its course, life would evolve and changing circumstances would bring about the end of rostered access - but often the very existence of strict access arrangements inhibits/prevents the changes and evolution we're hoping for. I met DH when DSS was 11, the arrangements were already set in stone, and by the time he'd got to 18 practically nothing had changed. Thurs-Sun EOW was intense"Daddy Time" and because he'd got this to look forward to each fortnight, he never bothered with his peers, so he didn't develop socially.

If he hadn't gone to Uni, or had started at a local Uni, I predicted the strict EOW arrangement would probably run for many years to come.

[daisychain01]

Blimey, sorry I didnt realise I was rambling on so much!

[daisychain01]

Hi croquet sorry I have come late to this post, hopefully its still Ok to post my thoughts, to add to everyone else's experiences. Reading your post it made me think there are so many challenges and limitations of shared care, especially as the child transitions and matures into adulthood. The short answer to your question is that IMHO there isnt any one "right time" to dispense with formal shared care.

There is so much thrown into the mix, like the DSC's maturity level, the willingness for parents to be flexible, whether their relationship is cooperative (or conversely whether the DCs are afraid to upset a parent who they sense holds negative feelings or resistance from a parent who see a change as loss of control, etc etc...), proximity between the two homes, even finances can play a part. It's a complex mix of emotions and practicalities.

Your personal situation highlights there comes a point in time where keeping the status-quo doesn't make sense, the DCs may want a change, or the parents feel it is time. We all know the advantage of parents cooperating, it can help matters because adults are more able to see practicalities than teenagers who cant see past their next party/social event/computer game big generalisation but you get the picture!

For you, the distance between their 2 homes is 'forcing the issue', they are having to make a choice because of where their social life is centred. My thought is, if your DP has a strong relationship with them, then even if they see less of him due to social activities, that bond does not weaken provided the face to face contact can be substituted to fill the gaps in time. Does he worry they may drift apart?

Teenagers still need a solid framework, but they have to realise that with age comes responsibility and they cant just expect you/Their DP to drop everything to accommodate their changing needs ( Im not suggesting they are, just a general comment). The trade-off is where a previously predictable care pattern is changed to a more ad-hoc arrangement, which could impact on you, unless you set some early ground rules, such as giving adequate notice if they want to come home to you/DF i.e. Not just ring up on a Thursday to come over that weekend!

Fwiw, I can't see the day when my DSS will ever alter the 50/50 care arrangement, not any time soon. It will only ever happen when he leaves home. At 16yo, he is a sensible young man so coukd be more independent, but the thought of disrupting the status-quo is just not worth it to him. The breakup of my DH with his ExP was so acrimonious that communication has been zero (literally) for the past 6 years. It was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but DH's naive dream that negotiation and cooperation could be achieved was ridden rough-shod over The 50/50 "parallel parenting" was the only solution ie no contact, DSS transitioning between homes (6 miles apart) via the school bus was the only viable framework that prevented shenanigans ahem keeps tactful silence The downside was totally inflexible and opaque parenting which now means breaking the cycle will be impossible. DSS compartmentalises his life into weeks with us, weeks with his DM, it was the only way he could cope.

petal your comment resonated so much with me, the care pattern is so firm entrenched, that to disrupt it would probably cause DSS distress, and letting life take its natural course to become the catalyst for change is best for his situation.

Ideally, teenagers should have the ability to change, in the knowledge that both parents are supportive and will help them transition into adulthood. If only we lived in a perfect world...

[croquet]

lol petal

[Petal02]

There's one thing that all step parents should be grateful for: university!!!!!! :)

[Kaluki]

God no!!! I think that's madness!!
It's hard seeing DS1 torn between wanting to see his dad and also wanting to be a 'normal' kid and make plans with his mates on a Saturday.
My ex is very chilled and laid back and doesn't push him but if DS2 still wants to go there he will take him alone, which makes DS1 feel jealous! But I guess he can't have it both ways!
We already have to worship one inflexible rota with dsc so I'm glad ex and I can be reasonable!
Dsc will be like your DSS petal following the rota till they are 18!!

[Petal02]

Kaluki you're generally quite balanced in your views, so I'm assuming you're not one of these mothers who insists her ex does a very specific amount of parenting each week, regardless of what else is happening in everyone's lives?

[Kaluki]

We are approaching this problem with my DS1 who is 14. He is getting a social life now, meets his friends on a Saturday and feels like he is missing out every other weekend when he is at his Dads (1 hours drive away). My ex understands this and is happy to let him stay home sometimes, but DS2 is 10 and still wants to go EOW so DS1 misses out whatever he does.
According to DS1 the solution to this is for his Dad to move nearer to us but that's a tall order!!

[lostdad]

Frogbyanothername `lostdad How significant do you think the "wanting to keep both parents happy" factor is?'

The interests of the children are paramount.

What I mean is that an ideal solution means everyone is content (if not happy) with a compromise situation. As anklebitersmum says this falls down when one or both parties refuse to act like adults (i.e. compromise, not be selfish and think of the kids).

[anklebitersmum]

It's situation and child dependent isn't it? There really is no 'right and wrong' because everyone's situation-be that financial, geographical or emotional and the individual needs of the child are genuinely different to everyone else's.

I agree with lostdad. Whatever is genuinely in the child's best interests.

In an ideal universe (teens) Mum talks to child, Dad talks to child, Mum and Dad talk separately, reach an adult compromise and communicate that to child. For younger children Mum & Dad discuss, it happens.

Of course this ideology falls down where one or both parties refuse to act like adults themselves.

[Frogbyanothername]

lostdad How significant do you think the "wanting to keep both parents happy" factor is?

My DHs DS ping-ponged between more-contact and no-contact for about 6 months, because he'd tell his Dad one thing, and his Mum another. When they all finally sat down in a room together, DHs DS clammed up, couldn't speak, shrugged "don't know" or "not bothered" when asked direct questions.

He is at that difficult age where court won't quite leave it up to him, but yet he is too old to be 'taken' for contact.

If families are expected to work it out for themselves, how do you overcome the influence of each parent on the child?

[croquet]

oh dear Petal. Well congratulations on his launch into independence!

[lostdad]

Apologies if I come across as a little flippant.

It's just that when questions like this arise what people are usually asking is What contact does everyone else's DC have?'<br /> <br /> The problem with that is that you'll end up with the Henry T Ford' of contact: i.e. children are all different and contact needs to be to suit them....so long as it's every other weekend and midweek tea'.<br /> <br /> As a McKenzie Friend it's certainly something I recognise: The NRP wants contact, the RP will only allow to this because it's normal' or generous to who? the NRP who in law doesn't have rights to contact?. Normal as `all my friends do the same'.

The thing is...only the OP will only know what works and what doesn't. And likely NRP has his/her own views on the matter. And the kids might have an opinion too.

A good deal of the problems separated parents have is no or insufficient communication. Come to think of it though, a lot of them are people sticking their oars in with their opinions.

My opinion oh, the irony is to talk to the kids, the NRP, etc. and work out something everyone can live with.

[Petal02]

My DSS was quiet and introverted by nature, and taking him 'out of area' EOW gave him an excuse not to engage with his peers; we often heard the comment that there was no point in sports/hobbies/activities as he was only at home on alternate weekends.

And then DH would put on a Butlins-style, no expense spared, entertainments schedule for access weekends, so it was preferable to spend leisure time with Dad than with lads his own age.

[croquet]

yes- I think it can infantilise kids. What normal teenager spends the weekend with their parents? It's a problem if they don't have all their stuff/any friends at the NRP's house.

[Petal02]

The last couple of posts have mentioned that the children's mother is keen for EOW contact to continue, and I'm sure this was a factor in our situation. The ex had remarried and had two more children, and she seemed to enjoy Thurs-sun EOW with her 'new family'.

So the ex wanted to stick to the rota, DSS had been almost brainwashed into thinking the rota underpinned life, and DH would rather have stuck pins in his eyes than upset the ex or say 'no' to his son. DSS, like many teenagers, had no idea of what was really in his best interests, and had become so infantilised by all this, that he thought it was for the best.

He's now been at Uni since September, away from the rota and some pretty questionable parenting - and he's absolutely thriving. He's morphing into a really nice young man who can think for himself when given the chance.

[Sushiqueen]

We had that conversation with the DSS's when they were a similar age. We all sat down and DH told them to be honest with him.
They admitted that some weekends they were being made to come by their mum and they would rather have done other things.
With their agreement DH wrote a letter to their mum thanking her for all her efforts but that he thought the boys were old enough to decide for themselves now. He emailed a list of weekends we weren't around every few months and said that any other time they were always welcome and just had to text/call and one of us would pick them up.
It ended up that some months we hardly saw them but then other times they were constantly at ours.
Their mum later admitted that it made life became easier as she had less rows with them about coming to ours. Plus they felt as if they had a say in what was happening,

[Hellocleaveland]

This is on my mind too at the moment. We currently have DSC EOW (sat morning to sun eve) and a bit more in the holidays. They are 17 and 14. We have had this arrangement for the past 8 years - when I met DH. DH is desperate to spend this time with them still, but I am finding it harder and harder as they seem less and less enthusiastic about being here. DSD (17) barely lets go of her phone the whole time she is here and DS (14, nearly 15) is never off his computer/DS. DS(5) loves seeing his half brother and sister and they are pretty good with him. Their mother is pretty keen for them to be with us EOW I think. We are also a fair way away, about 1hr 30 mins. I don't know how things could/would change though. Who starts that conversation? I don't think DSC would voice their reluctance to keep coming so regularly as they wouldn't want to hurt their dad's feelings. And of course if I say anything I am the wicked stepmother not wanting to see the DSC

[purpleroses]

Sorry - that last comment should have been directed at frogs - as it was her point I was responding to.

(I agree that saying whatever's in the best interests of the child is correct but a bit of a non-answer when you're trying to work out what really is in their best long-term interests)

[purpleroses]

I think there's a compromise though lostdad Teenagers are too young to be given the choice of seeing their NRP or not - it's the adults job to ensure that there's sufficient contact for them to build up a meaningful relationship with both parents.

But there's lots of ways of doing that. Teenagers are old enough to have some say in the pattern of contact that works for them. And that may involve reducing the frequency of contact as they get older in favour of larger chunks and more indirect contact in cases where there's a big distance involved.

[Frogbyanothername]

lostdad That term is so incredibly subjective though - who can say, with any degree of certainty, what is best for the DCs?

Our legal system places responsibility for that with the teens themselves in relation to this issue - my experience of teenagers is that they are often the last people to know what is best for them in other aspects of their life - are they really so well informed when it comes to the benefits of a relationship with their parent?

[lostdad]

I would expect whatever contact to be whatever is in the best interests of the children. Simple as that.

[Frogbyanothername]

When the child is older, evening contact becomes more of an option though - so if there is a run of weekends which don't fit with a teens social life, a late dinner out with Dad on the Friday night meeting halfway (assuming public transport is available) might be possible?

When a DC lives so far from a NRP it's inevitable that they will be guests in their home - and as they get older, visiting family becomes less of a priority.