What do you think of this suggestion?

[breaktheroutine]

DSSs are 17 and 14. Since the court order was issued 11 years ago (DH had to go to court because his ex who had left him after her having an affair, wouldn't let him see the children), access has been strictly adhered to.

The children are "not allowed" to see their father outside of the strict access rota. So this means that DH collects them at 6pm on a Friday, EOW, and returns them at 6pm on a Sunday. They live 4 miles away and both DP & I and their mother live almost next to a bus stop on a main bus route (buses every 5 mins).

So clearly the children are still being treated like very young children. They have no social lives at all and so the access has remained unchanged since the youngest was 3. It is worth including that the children are very frightened of anything that risks annoying their mother (such as being 5 minutes late home on a Sunday evening for example, which apparently sets her off into a mad rage).

The routine has become so entrenched that no-one (except me!) seems to question it any more. So it appears out of the question for example that DSSs are more than capable of, heaven forbid, getting the bus to our house instead of DH driving there and back and collecting them. Sundays in particular are a continuing problem - like most teenagers they get up late and so breakfast is often not until 10 or after for them. Meaning it's silly to have lunch earlier than 1 for example. So in order to have the evening meal eaten on time and all their stuff ready to go home etc., there is usually a mad panic to get the meal made and eaten. This means that often they are hurridely gobbling down their food, not finishing it, leaving the table while I/DH/DS are still eating to run around stresing over being late home.

Now, whilst clearly an option would be to start making dinner earlier, this makes it virtually impossible to do anything in the afternoon such as go out. (worth mentioning that on a "non-access" weekend, we would usually have a light tea at say 6pm/6.30pm. So we change our our routine to suit the mother's insistence that the teenagers are returned to her at 6pm).

Another thread this week has made me question this silly regimented routine on a Sunday. Why on earth are we rushing and stressing out on a Sunday, disturbing a family meal just because their controlling mother insists on having a 17 and 14 year old home at 6pm.

So I want to set about finding an alternative less stressful solution and intend discussing this with DH. Before I do, I wanted opinions on this.

How about we offer DSSs 2 alternatives -

1. We all share a relaxed family lunch as usual, 1ish for example. We then have a light tea as per our normal family routine at 6 or 6.30 (depending on what we're doing that afternoon as a family). DSSs stay to eat with us, but accept this means they won't be home until relaxed meal is concluded, which may mean they're not home until 7.30 sometimes.
   

OR

1. Lunch as usual, say 1ish, as above. If DSS's don't want to do option 1 in fear of their mother, then they accept this means DH bringing them home before our family tea. This would in reality therefore mean them leaving at say 5.
   

Thoughts??

[taxiforme]

We have exactly the same dsc 17 15 and 13 yet the ex lives five mins walk away!! All you have all said us true, on a Sunday night my dss is in fits if they are late, gobbling down supper..

Dss is not allowed to walk up to our house at 13 years old! We live in a small village where he was born and his family all live. It drives us mad to see him so.... Gelded... By his mother's neuroses and my dh likewise by her control!

As for answers.... Like you I am wondering if we will be doing this when they are 35! Eldest dss is doing a levels but gas no ambition to go to uni.

Dh sees the light fortunately but it is killing him as we can only do so much in the time we have. They can't even pack their own cases or know what to wear on holiday!! We are determined to try and make them self suffient independent and questioning. I do try and make them see what is the worst that can happen if they are late???!!!

[breaktheroutine]

I mean we had dinner just after 6!

[breaktheroutine]

Well we've only had one "normal" access visit since I posted (we were away last time and of course they're not allowed to come outside of the rota). But on the one occasion they were here, we had dinner just after 7 and they were home about 7. No one died.

This weekend coming, DH's sister is coming at 5pm on Sunday, and dinner won't therefore be until 6 at the earliest again. So they'll be "late" home again.

So for now, all is well! I'm gradually chipping away at all those mindless silly rigid rituals we've all been living with.

[Petal02]

Breaktheroutine - how are things, have you finally broken free of your Sunday Routine??????

[ladydeedy]

Hi break the routine the kids were around 14 when we broke it. Also I agree, it all about controlling DH and me and what we do with our weekends. We would find it hard to schedule lunch and day out at friends who live a distance away as kids would start getting anxious about leaving straight after lunch in case they were going to be late back if we got stuck in traffic. One day when I had them on my own as DH was away, we were at friends for lunch and one of the kids got a text from her saying they had to be back an hour earlier than usual. This was once she'd heard that we were out
Anything to scupper our plans. We ignored it and I dropped them back normal time. Tough on the kids but they know she is a bully. That's what it boils down to in the end.
One of them came to live with us shortly after as couldn't live with her bullying any more...

[matana]

Sorry if i've missed something but i would be tempted to say that if she wants them back at 6pm on the dot, she can give them their dinner. And offer that if it helps you'll give them a cooked meal at lunchtime instead. 6pm isn't particularly late for dinner, especially for teenagers. We used to have this problem. Luckily, although DH's ExW is also very rigid, she did eventually concede to DH dropping them back later or sometimes dropping them back for their dinner depending on what we'd been doing during the day.

Another option coming up to the spring and summer if you don't want to do a roast is maybe a barbecue. Much more fun, relaxed and outdoors...

[breaktheroutine]

Plus she doesn't need to control anything else because they have no social lives anyway, she's made sure of that

[Petal02]

What would happen when, heaven forbid, DSS1 meets a friend or girlfriend, would he reasonably expect to have to be home by 6pm because this is what mum says?

BTR, I suspect the curfew is only in place to control your DH, and that in any situations where it couldn?t have any effect on your household, then the ex would lose interest ???

[breaktheroutine]

Ladydeedy what ages were the children when you managed to break the 6pm curfew in the end?

Interesting that she wants them home to do some specific duties for her. This is also the case here. There's not even any pretence that the curfew is for their own benefit, but that she needs them back to do jobs in the house. Good luck on her behalf they dont have normal social lives to get in her way the rest of the time

[ladydeedy]

We had exactly this situation - 6pm on the dot and not 5 mins early or later or woe betide!
In the end we said, well we can return them at 6, but we dont have our dinner till 6.30pm or 7pm so they wont have had a meal. We returned them at appointed time, they would have had late breakfast/brunch and snack mid afternoon but no main meal.
EXW soon got fed up and decidd she'd rather they stayed later with us and got fed, rather than her have to bother about it herself.
This, despite the fact she still got them to do the week's ironing (including hers) on a Sunday night on their return...

[breaktheroutine]

Just remembered - I asked what did he think would happen when DSS1, heaven forbid, meets a friend or a girlfriend, would he reasonably expect to have to be home by 6pm because this is "what mum says" and no-one, not even dad, has ever questioned it as ridiculous? Would he have to abandon a date before it had started because he has always been home at 6pm as demanded?

My argument was partly that if we don't lead by example and question silly rules, then why would DSS1 ever question them, given they're sold to him by his mother as the law?

[breaktheroutine]

YY to "sink the boat"!

Petal I really think you're right with this
"You?re backing him into a corner (translation: he knows you?re right, but he?s terrified of upsetting the ex/boys, and he doesn?t have any decent arguments to counter your suggestion)"

As for his response when I asked him what he would do as DSS1 gets older i.e. is an adult - well in short, he had no response . Except when I said DSS1 is 17 his answer was "well he's not really 17 is he?" (i.e. recognition that DSS1 acts like a young child but no ideas of how we should encourage more age appropriate behaviours )

[NotaDisneyMum]

I wish someone would sink that f*ing boat !!!!

Brilliant! Love it!

[Petal02]

Hi, glad to hear you?ve had a chat with your DH.

I?d like to comment on some of the objections he put forward:

You?re backing him into a corner (translation: he knows you?re right, but he?s terrified of upsetting the ex/boys, and he doesn?t have any decent arguments to counter your suggestion).

You have ulterior motives (but you?re suggesting the boys stay later to make things easier, so this disproves his comment)

The children will be stressed (but the present regime already stresses them (and everyone else) out, which is why you want to change it).

But I?m glad he agreed that the present arrangements are not sensible, and not appropriate for the age of the boys. Although my DH often used to agree that various arrangements were silly, but would still refuse to change them.

I also completely understand your comments about the ex controlling the situation indirectly. We had years of this, and it?s very manipulative. My DH knew that that if he upset the ex, she?d give DSS a hard time, and the fear of this happening was enough to (usually) make DH toe the line.

When you asked him the time frame for ending the ex?s regime, ie when DSS1 is 20/25/30 ? what was his response?

But as someone who lived with an insane rota for far too long, I totally feel your pain and will NEVER understand doing ridiculous things just for the sake of rota compliance and/or ?not rocking the boat.? I wish someone would sink that f*ing boat !!!!

[breaktheroutine]

Yes, exactly, they've both now apparently been told "not to ask her any more to see their father" outside of the strict access rota. And despite being 17, the eldest complies unquestioningly

[NotaDisneyMum]

She manages to control the situation by instilling such fear into her own children that if DH rocks the boat then its the children who react and get stressed

Yes. This. What IS it with these mothers?!

I get exactly where you're coming from - what scares me is how long it's been going on for your DSC

[breaktheroutine]

Update - I discussed this to DH last night

Not an entirely fruitful conversation, will give some excerpts:

• he agreed that it is disruptive to the family day having to stop everything and plan around cooking dinner at 5pm
  
• he agreed that Sunday evening meal itself is stressful due to the rushing around etc etc
  
• he agreed that the arrangements for Sunday evening are age inappropriate
  

But also said

• I'm backing him into a corner
  
• I have alterior motives
  
• The children will be stressed
  

I countered the latter by saying that we are giving them a choice. I also asked at what point in the future he himself would find it appropriate to put an end to his exes reign of terror and the control over our Sunday evenings - when DSS1 is 18/19/20/never?

I countered the alterior motives by saying one of my suggestions was for DSSs to actually go home later rather than earlier on a Sunday evening. Just that the current option doesn't suit anyone except the ex.

I said the current situation also doesn't benefit the children because it was so rushed and stressed and they inevitably forget stuff in the mad rush out the door and then she gets mad anyway.

Went round in circles for a bit, but I think it concluded that he would give them a choice this Sunday coming

[breaktheroutine]

She manages to control the situation by instilling such fear into her own children that if DH rocks the boat then its the children who react and get stressed. So indirectly she's controlling the situation, because DH clearly doesn't want the children to be stressed.

I'll let you know how I get on. I think the earlier drop-off is the best outcome. The children won't be stressed about that. If she insists on them being home by 6pm then she can have them at 5pm and do them tea herself

[Petal02]

It?s one of those situations where the ex doesn?t really have a leg to stand on ? I can?t imagine a court taking much notice about a 14 and 17 yr old (the latter being too old for a court order) who get their Sunday meals at times which don?t suit the ex ??

HOWEVER

The only real chance of common sense winning the day, is if you?ve got your DH on side. Without that, you?re wasting your time. My DH used to be terrified of rocking the boat. What he really meant, is he didn?t want upset his ex. God knows why, because she had no power or sanctions available to cause problems. He kept saying she could make things difficult, but when pressed he couldn?t give examples of anything she could do. She never did lifts, so it?s not like she could cause problems there, she?d NEVER withhold access (quite the opposite in fact), and if she tried to increase the amount of time DSS spent with us, all DH had to do was say ?no.?

But there?s this huge, imaginary, completely unfounded fear about What Might Happen If We Upset The Ex. Although in my darker moments I?ve suspected that DH is simply more keen to please her than me (but that?s one for another thread). So whilst the ex may hold all the cards, the cards only exist in your DH?s imagination.

[breaktheroutine]

Yes, although he's already been told he has to go to the one nearest home and live with mum

[willyoulistentome]

Poor kids. Is the eldest planning on going to Uni?

[breaktheroutine]

No of course you're right a court order isn't meant for the 17 year old (think it expired for him at 16). But if mummy says so, then this is what he does. It would simply not occur to him to think otherwise. Unfortunately (and quite worringly actually) he doesn't seem to think himself if an actual separate person to his mother capable of any sort of independent thought. I know it sounds strange if you've not come across it - I found it helpful to read some material on "adult children of narcissistic parents". His behaviour is really well explained in some of the articles. Much of what he actually says is straight from her mouth. He used to start many of his sentences with "mum says....". Now he's learned to delete the "mum says" part of the sentence but regurgitates her words in the way he always has. If anyone disagrees then he'll say "mum is always right about these things"

[willyoulistentome]

What do the boys actually want though. Surely a court would amend the court order if the boys stated what they wanted, now they are older don't they have a say too? A court order won't apply to an 18 year old will it? He will be an 'adult'. Not that the result of a change would necessarily make YOUR weekends any easier.

[breaktheroutine]

Sorry missed a couple

theredhen yes it's completely about control. This has gone on long enough and if we don't put an end to it at some point DH could be ferrying a stressed out 20 year old back to mummy's house by 6pm on a Sunday just because a court order once said so. She doesn't want the children to be independent at all, this would be a direct threat to her control. It suits her for them not to have friends/activities they enjoy because then they need her more.

Petal yes I'm happy to have a "main" meal at lunch time and they're definitely welcome to help themselves to a sandwich later. I would still have a sit down tea later though as would want DS to have one so would still want no ferrying around between say 5 and 7.30. And I'm definitely tempted with the "why the f* should we have to eat at such a weird time to accommodate an out-dated rota?? !

[Petal02]

Does she let the oldest one out on his own on her weekends? He?ll be 18 soon and then I guess he can do what he likes

Fine in theory, but my DSS (age 18) is very similar to the OP?s eldest DSS, and all he wants to do is hang out with his Dad. Turning 18 didn?t make any difference to life whatsoever.