Poo handling driving me mad - lost it with DS2 tonight

[sphil]

If anyone's read my thread in Health you'll know that my whole family has been down with a vomiting bug this half term - and now DH has it very badly, with diarrohea as well.
This is a bit of an excuse for the post that follows Apologies to those who've heard parts of the saga before...

DS2 (7, ASD) has been toilet trained for wee since last Feb. but we've had no success at all in getting him to poo on the toilet. He goes in his pants - and usually scoops out the contents with his hands. During the day he has recently taken to putting it down the loo (which we see as positive) but at night, even though he has a porti-potty in his bedroom, he deposits it over the stairgate we have on his bedroom door. Tonight I went up very soon after putting him to bed as I knew he needed to go - and there he was covered in it, throwing it over the barrier and laughing. I got him into the bathroom where he started trying to hug me with his poo covered hands - which is when I lost it. Normally I'm very calm where poo is concerned - and DH and I have made a recent decision to be deadpan when he does it, as the ' No, DS2, poo goes in the toilet' approach wasn't working at all. But I spent all day in bed yesterday feeling like death, DH is really poorly, and I really, really have had enough of this. I was much rougher than I needed to be when I was washing his hands and I even smacked his hand at one point when he was trying to get to his bottom again . Of course, this just made him scream and shout - I KNOW it doesn't work with him because he just doesn't get it . Now feeling very guilty - have been up again and he's fine - but who knows what effect it had on him?

The wonder is that we don't get bugs more often, the amount of poo that we, and he, must be exposed to.

[sickofsocalledexperts]

Fantastic - keep with the fruit pastilles! We started also by bunging him on loo as bath ran, sometimes for an hour.

[magso]

Brilliant! -there should be a champagne icon!
(thats how we started too)

[sphil]

DH managed to get him to do a poo in the loo tonight - I think it just dropped in rather than actually being 'done' on there iyswim - but he seemed really pleased when we all got excited and even more pleased when he got a fruit pastille .

[magso]

Very positive! He knows where it should go!

[sickofsocalledexperts]

great result!!!

[sphil]

Well tonight he has scooped but came straight out and put it down the loo, so I think the barrier was the association for throwing.

I want to ask about bottom wiping but will start separate thread.

[magso]

Tuning in to poo watch!
Sounds like all is going well! Hope the social stories work. It all sounds very carefully thought out, though I do hope you don't have to camp too long in the corridor! I too felt that some acknowledgement that (all) poo is dirty (difficult to wash off the carpet/cloths) was required for our ds as he did not seem to understand this.

I did not finish my post (distracted by ds) so missed the point which was that IMHO it is good for my son at least to see emotions as they are and that loosing ones cool very occasionally (showing that disgust we carefully hide) can be less harmful to our kids than us!

With the benefit of hindsight I think my ds did not like the feel (or smell) of poo in his pants (especially in bed or sitting) or on his hands so tried to get rid of it usually by scooping and wiping his hands. I used to sit ds on the loo (dressed/nappied at first)on a secure padded child loo seat with footrest whilst I ran his bath and eventually (very eventually) it went from there. I am sure the why? is unique to each child.
Good luck!

[sickofsocalledexperts]

You are doing well sphil, keep with it. Do not feel you are being cruel - in the long run, you are teaching one of the most fundamental social rules which will stand him in good stead for all his life.Good luck on the poo trail!

[sphil]

Right - new plan. We've removed the barrier altogether and I am typing this camped in the corridor to stop him wandering about. He keeps coming out of his room and peering at me, but I am ignoring him (not horribly but because I'm on MN - he's used to that). He's not particularly excited which is good.

This afternoon I made ' My Book about Poo' with Communicate in Print - very simple social story with words and symbols about sitting on the loo to do a poo and not touching it with hands etc. He was fairly interested (more than usual in a new book) - and I'm going to keep reading it to him. After much deliberation I did put in a page about poo being dirty and smelly and another one about Mum and Dad being cross if he touched it/threw it, though I know the perceived wisdom on potty training is NOT to mention these things.

I am trying to think of an aversive, Mojo, but I can't - the only thing that might work is a loud noise of some kind, but that seems so cruel. I'm sure you're right about ABA principles though - atm we're trying to analyse his behaviour using the ABC method, but I'm still not absolutely sure why he does it.

Interesting - while I've been sitting here he's gone into the loo twice for a pee (both tiny from the sound of it) and is pacing about quite a bit - I wonder if he's gearing up?

The BBC give you Autumnwatch - I give you Poowatch

[MojoLost]

sphil, I think you have done so well at keeping your cool all this time, honestly!
I lost count of the number of times i had to clean poo from the floors, it took a year to potty train DS, so I really really feel for you.

I tried magso's cold shower thing, or rather, washing his bum with slightly cool water rather than warm water (mentioned it here in mumsnet but some people seemed to think I was torturing him) anyway, this didn't work for us.

What do you give him to eat in the evenings? I find that fruit makes my DS go for his number 2s soon after, maybe you could try to avoid the night poo by changing his dinner?

You know a lot about ABA right? If he is doing this night poo thing on purpose then he is enjoying the outcome of the whole situation. Is there something he really dislikes? The problem I had with DS is that I couldn't find a good enough reward for pooing the toilet and I couldnt find a good enough consequence for pooing in the pants, but I think the ABA logic would really work in this type of siguation.

[magso]

I hope you are feeling better soon. Nothing like feeling ill to disrupt the careful cool calm po faced act in the face of pooey hands and home!
We had to use the 'no reaction' technique but quite by accident ( yes I lost my cool) discovered that ds had matured enough to understand poo in wrong place = 'very upset mummy'. I was showering ds off in the bath as you do, (it was everywhere), ds was protesting as usual, and at the end of my tether (also unwell) I was slow to notice the water heater had cut out and the shower was chilling rapidly! The effect of the chilly shower had rather greater effect than a chilly attitude! Ds has not soiled the bath since (well the odd accident)! Better still ds is able to notice absolutly furious mummy and will not seek this out in the way he used to! I now use 'hammed up cross' to get points across, (wavy arms, hands on hips or to mouth).

I am not suggesting torturing with a cold shower but there may come a point when frosty behaviour does start to communicate rather than entertain.

[sphil]

We have two of the Rackety's suits and they are brilliant, though DS doesn't want to go back into them now he's been in PJs for a few weeks. I did wonder about using this - ' If you throw your poo then you'll have to wear a sleepsuit' but I don't think his receptive language is good enough to understand this.

[jackny]

My DS (ASD) has similar problems and we have regularly had to clear up a poo smeared room. He is still in a nappy at night and the only way we have managed to stop the problem is to dress him in a 'sleep suit' which does up at the back. Racketys and KC Sleepsuits do a range of sleepsuits but they are quite pricey £25. If your DS is small for his age - La Redoute do sleepsuits up to 104cm (age 4) for £9. I know this is probably defeats the object as you are trying to get your DS to be independent but we couldn't take the mess anymore!!

Good luck and you have our sympathies.

[sphil]

No, he gets very hyped up if we're anywhere upstairs - just keeps shouting 'night-night, night-night' and laughing. But it may be worth a try, because he's not settling down very quickly even if we're downstairs. I think the most likely thing is that he'll just hold onto his poo if he can see us - he never does it in 'public' any more, but goes into another room.

I think it's definitely an association - tonight we moved the barrier so he can get into the bathroom and he just lobbed the poo over it again. Tonight I remained calm however! I also think that putting the plastic down may be a mistake in a way - it almost seems as if we're saying 'here you are, Ds2, you can throw it on here'. But we can't remove the barrier entirely - he'd be all over the house and he's just not safe.

I'm now thinking of CCTV or webcam - if we could only catch him at it we would be a step further.

[silverfrog]

I can see this whole type of routine happening with dd1 tbh.

I totally agree with trying to break the routine; sometimes wrongfooting dd1 (and then immediate distraction while she's trying to work out what's going on) works.

would your ds eventually settle if you stayed upstairs? have you tried sitting outside his door?

I didn't ever think dd1 woud, and that she would get far too wound up and hyper to even try to settle if i was there, but when sleep went ot pot earlier this year, and we were having a horrendous time, that is what worked.

It was such a total change of routine (sadly one that si still ongoing, but that's another story!) that it completely broke the screaming/hysterical behaviour.

would it be worth a try? we settle down now on some cushions, with an ipod to watch a film/catch up with iplayer or MN. if you are right there, he might be less likely to lob the poo over?

[ouryve]

DS1 has had the sickness bug all week, too. It's weeks like this I'm glad he's still in nappies, because he's squitting for England. The only problem is, now he's over the fever bit, he's drunk and giddy and so hyper and defiant he's worn me out today.

I'd pour you a virtual glass of plonk, but we're all out (hic!)

[sphil]

Still on plain rice and chicken broth - I must be ill if the thought of a glass of wine makes me shudder...

[sphil]

He's down for the teeth painting - apparently his back molars are coming through with v thin enamel. He's had a bit done on front teeth but there's no way he'd keep his mouth open long enough to do the back without sedation. As it is, it takes a dentist, two nurses and me dancing round with our mouths open all chanting ' Do this DS2' before he'll even part his lips!

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

Dentist said if they ever have to do anything to ds1 then they will paint his teeth whilst he is under the GA. I have it at the back of my mind to ask if a GA ever happens.

[sickofsocalledexperts]

I reckon it will all come to you when you and DH are fully recovered. Maybe then both of you can tackle it over a weekend, ie holding him physically on the loo while chanting "poo in loo", copious choc, then lots of teeth cleaning? NB - the dentist painted some stuff on my 8 year old's teeth to stop her getting fillings if that's of any use. I am dreading dentist with ASD DS though, as even a filling would necessitate a general anaesthetic (there's no way on earth he would sit still). This stuff is hard sphil, can you have a medicinal glass of something now? I am off for a fag once I've got DC to bed. x

[sphil]

Yep, got plastic outside the door! Tbh it's the hands I find difficult rather than the carpet - his poos are normally solid thank God (though not tonight...)
Tried choc a while ago but could try again - he has tooth decay so trying to avoid just before bed. Trouble is, I was saving that for when he actually poos - don't know what I'd use as a reward otherwise.

[sickofsocalledexperts]

That is hard if he is seeing it as a game and laughing when you stay upstairs - sounds like it has become an attention-seeking behaviour. Perhaps you should put his mattess in the bathroom one night to break the habit! And tell him that poo goes in loo so he has to sleep there if he's going to poo in bed. I know that is probably a stupid idea, but the thing with my DS is that he is pretty non-verbal, so we have to SHOW not TELL him what to do, and bargaining with him doesn't work as he doesn't get "if... then " concepts. The other thing you could do is get some of those plastic disposable tablecloths and put one on the floor outside the barrier each night just so you don't have so much cleaning up to do when you're ill. It is so hard! Have you tried bribes of sweets or chocs to keep him on loo (I'm sure you have?)

[sphil]

You are all making me feel much better btw! Love the fish pie/phone story

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

oh I have just thought of something, but I will email you as it's not my story iyswim.

[sphil]

We have tried that, SIckofsocalledexperts, but I think we need to try harder! He is very very aware when we are still upstairs - spends all his time hanging over the barrier and laughing - and I'm pretty sure he realises what we're up there for too, so it turns into a battle of wills. Holding him on the loo is almost impossible now - he's too strong - and even while I'm doing it I'm aware that the muscular tension involved in him trying to get up is not going to help him poo!

I am wondering whether the Houdini suit might be our sensory aversive thing? He loves his PJs - so maybe... How old was your DS, MrsT, when you told him he could have a normal duvet if he kept his nappy on? I'm not at all sure DS would get an 'if' statement.