Article about Down Syndrome and termination in the Sunday Times today.

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

here

It starts with the sentence "Children should not be brought into this world to suffer". It then goes onto explain that the woman tested positive for DS and so had a termination at 19 weeks. And finishes with that chestnut about pressure on the other children.

Now I believe in abortion and believe that every woman has the right to an abortion for whatever reason. None of my business. But I do get cross with the oft spouted idea that people with learning disabilities 'suffer'. And I do feel that I am entitled to challenge that (without challenging the person's choice- not interested in their choice, but if they start talking about 'suffering' in public with no experience well.... ). I am now fortunate enough to know a lot of people with learning disabilities and I haven't yet met one who is 'suffering'. This is something I think that society needs to understand and people with LD's will never be treated equally whilst they are seen as suffering or people to be pitied who live half baked lives. My friend has a grown up son with DS and she recently attended his friend's engagement party. I asked what it was like when she got back and she said 'well you know, full of people with LD's so brilliant and a lot of fun' which just about sums up my experience of LD's.

And the stuff about siblings makes me cross too. DS2 at one stage got quite excited at the thought he could live with ds1 when older so he wouldn't have to marry a 'yucky girl', but now knows (aged 7) that is not expected of him. When asked what his future 'job ' is he says 'to sort out social services' and he also understands he can do that from Australia if need be. DS3 will come to understand the same. And meanwhile, yes there are things they can't access so easily because of ds1 but they also get a whole bunch of positives from growing up with a disabled sibling. Overall I think the effect of having LD's around them in their childhood will be good. Certainly they're happy.

There was a small panel on the page about a woman who kept her baby with DS, but predictably it wasn't given the coverage of the termination suffering children suffering siblings story.

[PheasantPlucker]

Thanks for the DM warning guys, you are prob right. I am off on hols now anyway, so off for a bit.

Riven I am sorry you didn't get away fo long, but I am sure dd was delighted to have you back. All you other lovely ladies, have a great week, and I will 'see' you when we are back.

PP

[masonicpixiesreadthedailymail]

am somewhat bemused that in yr current turmoil, HHouse you have searched mumsnet sn and found this thread

You don't need to argue the toss / defend yrself right now. Have a look at the AN Testing forums, you may find the termination support thread helpful. Contact ARC. Better off seeking help and support there.

If this doesn't help - perhaps you are struggling with yr article - then just keep on trawling the archives. This debate has been done to death here

[Jimmychasesducks]

the poster has made one post, bit suss, bumping an old thread up during all this DM stuff

[TheDMshouldbeRivened]

oh

[Jimmychasesducks]

Beware of the troll

[TheDMshouldbeRivened]

'You cannot possibly understand the turmoil experienced by every woman who makes this heartbreaking decision. Have some compassion - not just for the child but for the mother too.'

errr, yes. I was asked if I wanted to turn dd's ventilator off. My baby was lying in front of me and they wanted me to 'terminate'. They said there would be no hope and she would be a vegetable.
I said no.

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

I'm sorry you are facing this difficult decision HHouse, but this is Special Needs. Many of us on here have very severely disabled children and we are entitled to have an opinion about the of quoted 'better off dead'.

This is a discussion on the board between people who all have disabled children. Of course the view from here might be different. Although I think many of us on here do have an understanding of life with severe disability because we live it day in day out.

I hope you get the results you want and as already suggested there are people who have been through the same thing as you on Antenatal results and choices - you will be able to get lots of support there.

[swineofthetimes]

I think you're making some sweeping assumptions there HHouse. You are assuming that none of us with disabled children could possibly know what it's like to be where you are. Do you think the decision to test or not is any easier if you already have a child with a defined or suspected chromosomal disorder? Let me tell you - it's not.

I'm really sorry you're having a crappy time of it, but I think you'd be better to post under ante-natal choices, where you will be able to get the support you need/ want.

[TheDMshouldbeRivened]

meant to be 2 nights but I missed dd too much and got myself in a state thinking she'd pass away if I wasn't there
But was nice seeing mumsnetters.

[PheasantPlucker]

DMRivened - hello - I thought you were off on hols?

[TheDMshouldbeRivened]

i think maybe you are posting in the wrong place. We all have disabled chidlren here, some of whom wont live to adulthood.
Try antenatal choices.

[LilyOfTheMountain]

Can't understand it? Hmm, I know I share some empathy of your sit- ds3 was supposed to have had DS (we wouldnt haev Amnio) so I do know of some of the fear. Absolutely, its not nice, actually it waqs weird- all through I aws 'well its just how it is' but the moment we found he didnt have DS a weight lifted.

Then a few years later we found he had ASD instead.

A happier little man there is not, though. He is in SN education and I cant see him as truly independent but heck, who cares? That is palcing my value system and wants onto him. He ahs a very different outlook in life. He's obv. not as severe as many others, but more so than some (mid way would be a good description).

I know my Mum made a decision to terminate a baby in a sit that outdoes almost everyone on the heartbreak scale ( 4 previous stillbirths) but she does claim responsibility for that decision ( a non comp[atible with life syndrome).

I dont think yu can criticise anyones eprsonal choices- our psyches and lives are so complex most of us don't even understand our own selves truly. But the isue I had with thsi article (sorry, have been away) was the assumption of suffering. I do think people need to know the truth about SN, that life can still be good.

[Therevchasesducks]

I would beware on this thread, strange that some ones 1st post was so nasty and bumped up an old thread

[Goblinchild]

Aspies For Freedom and Weird Planet posters may have a serious point when they worry about the possibile consequences of tests being developed to detect autistic traits in the womb.
Last year there was a big debate when ND posters were worrying about the aborting of ND foetuses in the future, to avoid the 'Tragedy of Autism' continuing.

[Therevchasesducks]

bloody hell HHouse you have just reminded
me why I don't share dd on here anymore.

[devientenigma]

HHouse, I do have compassion for the mother and do understand the turmoil you are going through. I went through exactly the same 3 times around. I agree it's hell. I also agree about comments people make..useless. I hope all goes well.

[PheasantPlucker]

Sorry, just wondering how people able to 'cope' with children with disabilities are heartless and inhumane? I obviously missed something somewhere.

House I wish you well, and hope you get the help and support you need if you have to make decisions on your pregnancy. Possibly there are other threads on MN you can seek out for support, rather than on SN.

[HHouse]

Having read some of the sanctimonious, holier than thou comments on this thread, I can certainly understand why a woman would lie about having a miscarriage when in fact she terminated a pregnancy. I am currently awaiting results for severe genetic deformaties (I'm 14 weeks pregnant) and, take it from me, I'm currently in hell. If I do terminate it will be the hardest decision I've ever made. Nasty comments from people with healthy children / believe in God / strong relationships able to cope with disabled children are so heartless and inhumane. You cannot possibly understand the turmoil experienced by every woman who makes this heartbreaking decision. Have some compassion - not just for the child but for the mother too.

[devientenigma]

FioFio, thats good to hear you were not having a dig. My ds also has seizures although epilepsy has not been confirmed. Is your dd DS?

[Litchick]

I read the article on Sunday and was struck by how the woman knew her DP would not be supportive.
They are now divorced.
I wonder if this was the main factor - that she knew she would have to do it alone, which must be very frightening indeed no?

[slightlycrumpled]

I agree that normal doesn't equate to happiness. The true extent of DS's LD's is not known yet really, although at the moment at worst they are moderate apart from communication which is severe. Even so we are far more content with our lives than many of our friends with NT children. There is perhaps an acceptance that life doesn't need to be perfect to be good or even great.

I once said that I would replace the part of the chromosome that is missing in DS2, but after giving it further thought I don't think I would. I mean I would do anything to help him speak, but what if making him 'perfect' changed the other parts of him that make him perfect to us, and make him... well him!

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

I don't think living with sld's gives a normal life. Ds1's life is certainly not normal and never will be. I think peopleboften equate normal and easy with happiness. I don't think that is true. Our life is much harder than it would be without ds1's disability ( or if it wasn't as severe) but I don 't think I'd be any happier. Given that he's given me a job I really enjoy I suspect I might be unhappyer without his disability in our lives.

[devientenigma]

Must say the 2nd newspaper article not the first that everyone is chatting about.