now I know there is no way I would vote for this man

[2shoes]

dipstick that he is

[Romy7]

i absolutely agree mmaj, just that earlier on a few people made comments about the dc/ivan photograph in the contaxt of the article... i agree with damned if you/ don't...

[MannyMoeAndJack]

Romy7 - don't think his wife can win can she? Damned if she is photographed with just the NT kids but damned if she has her disabled dc photographed too!

[Romy7]

2shoes - nothing at all - it was just the only other example of 'famous' people with visibly disabled children (and pictures i had seen/ issues with 'famous' people and using/ not using their diabled offspring) that sprang to mind - nothing to do with the abortion debate - and not a comment/ judgement on whether or not she 'uses' her child - i don't buy 'hello/ heat' whatever, but have been vaguely aware that there have been articles in the background etc. there were comments early on that DC was 'using' his disabled child, which i disagreed with, and couldn't remember having seen any pics of him (although everyone 'knows') so was interested that there were a library of pictures...
i did find it interesting that his wife chose to be photographed for a glam front page shoot with the two NT children - totally irrelevant, but i just wondered if it would be viewed as 'protecting' Ivan, or an accusation of him not being 'norm' or perfect enough to be seen in that context...

[vicsta]

Haven't read all 10 pages of posts but FECKING TW*TBOY WANKER! Has he thought about people like my wonderful son, who was born a perfectly healthy and "normal" little boy, but serious illness at 2 days old have left him severely brain damaged? Should I have been allowed to Kill him at that point? (That said, I am pro choice, but who the fuck is he to use his sons tragedy to his own end?) How can he sleep at night, kissing his son for publicity then saying - 'if your kid has any chance of being like this, you can kill them'. Grrrrrrr! (really am pro informed choice so please don't shout at me xx)

[Poohbah]

He can't really win with this one can he?

If he said that babies with disabilities should not be aborted in any circumstances people would say that it's okay for him, he's rich, a toff, lives near Chelsea and Westminster hospital and can afford extra support and care for his son but is condemming parents less fortunate than himself to care for disabled children in much worse circumstances.

I agree with Riven. I don't think any babies with disabilities should be aborted but I've never been in that situation.

BUT, It's only recently that disabled facilities grants are now not means tested for children. I have seen children being cared for in awful physical conditions in the home and parents stretched to the absolute limit, family breakup and issues of abuse are a result of the strain of caring day in day out for years for these children, often with bugger all support in some cases from Social Services, likewise older children abandoned to lives in homes without any family visitors at all.

[Poohbah]

He can't really win with this one can he?

If he said that babies with disabilities should not be aborted in any circumstances people would say that it's okay for him, he's rich, a toff, lives near Chelsea and Westminster hospital and can afford extra support and care for his son but is condemming parents less fortunate than himself to care for disabled children in much worse circumstances.

I agree with Riven. I don't think any babies with disabilities should be aborted but I've never been in that situation.

BUT, It's only recently that disabled facilities grants are now not means tested for children. I have seen children being cared for in awful physical conditions in the home and parents stretched to the absolute limit, family breakup and issues of abuse are a result of the strain of caring day in day out for years for these children, often with bugger all support in some cases from Social Services, likewise older children abandoned to lives in homes without any family visitors at all.

[loudmouthmum]

I have inherited problems from both sides of my family, causing dd & ds2's disabilities. When my daughter's first few problems were diagnosed (9 months-ish), i.e. Hypermobility Syndrome, GDD,partial deafness, and then speech delay at 2 1/2 & mild ASD at 3 1/2, I was told these probs would not occur in subsequent pregnancies. On that basis, I did not have tests during ds1's pregnancy. He's NT. so had ds2...more severe probs than anyone else in family, mobility impaired due to HMS being so bad. I have now found out that the form of HMS in my mum's family IS genetic, each child has 50% chance of being affected. Then my daughter has been dxd with epilepsy, like me, my cousin, my aunt & my nan (Dad's side of the family). We are being tested as they think?! there is a genetic link, and None of us have control over our Epilepsy, we all have daily seizures, Therefore at 27, I have chosen to either have no further children, or to go through EVERY possible test there is, and as I personally couldn't cope with a 3rd disabled child, for the first time ever, WOULD consider a 'termination', however, testing for the problems we have can take place at 16 & 22 weeks, not sure if I could terminate after that point! However, a person that I know, 20-odd years ago, was repeatedly raped & held prisoner, and blocked out everything that had happened to her, until couselling got her to realise that she was, in fact, 24 weeks pregnant. She had a VERY late 'termination', at 33 weeks, what would have been an NT baby, but was a DNR due to state of mother's mental health. SO there ARE some situations where a later 'termination' WOULD be necessary. HOWEVER I do feel that this should ONLY be in the most extremes of circumstances, i.e. in my situation, it just would not be acceptable to have a termination that late when tests can be performed and carried out much earlier than that, and the reason would be the strain on an already overstretched family.

[2shoes]

sorry what has katie got to do with it?

[Romy7]

recent pics msd? golly, never seen any. s'pose that's indicative of the importance of the family in the media, eh? unless you're Jordan/Katie.

[msdemeanor]

He has been photographed with Ivan several times. If you search Google Images and type in David Cameron Ivan you will see a number of pictures, including the whole family with Ivan in his major buggy/wheelchair.
Gordon Brown is also uninterested in changing the laws on abortion and his younger son has CF. I assume he also loves his child.

[Romy7]

he's my mp at work. v nice in an mp sort of way. visits a bit. don't think he would mention his son by choice, not without being forced. i've often wondered whether i had the bolleaux to ask him about disability policy in general, but not got round to it yet. i'd quite like to chat to him about it, rather than watching him attempt to think on his feet at a news conference...
i do wonder where they dug that photo out from though - i bet he was ticked.

[2shoes]

I am sure he loves his son. men are not normaly gushing about feelings.

[msdemeanor]

given that later terminations are so rare I would tend to assume they are important to the people who choose or are forced into them (in the case of the woman who had a termination to save her life).
I am glad this option exists for rare cases. And given the hit and miss postcode lottery of screening, I think it is a valuable safeguard for some people.
I do find it pretty offensive to suggest that just because David Cameron supports leaving the abortion act intact, then he doesn't love his own disabled son. I think that's an awful thing to say.

[2shoes]

but i for one was never talking about fatal conditions, as the law stands it says "severe" that is not just fatal conditions. and how can anyone judge that something will be fatal anyway. doctors do get it wrong you know.

if you already have one child with a genetic severe disability, it is different "choosing" not to have another one. as you will know there is a high chance. but even so the 24 week init is high enough to cover that surely. no need to kill a viable baby.

[msdemeanor]

It's different for babies with disabilities partly because so many conditions can only be detected late. I think forcing people to maintain pregnancies and then give birth to children with progressive fatal conditions or no brain is absolutely brutal. Clearly you wouldn't agree, but there are plenty of people who are wonderful, passionate, devoted parents to severely disabled children who do terminate subsequent pregnancies when the child has the same condition. And I'm very glad they have that right.

[msdemeanor]

I completely disagree that saying abortion is OK is the same as saying some people should be dead. Totally different. I know completely fabulous parents who had abortions. I know people who have terminated perfectly healthy(as far as they know) babies, who love their babies. I obviously wouldn't care if I was terminated as I wouldn't exist! I'd glad I am alive, but then I have to be alive to be glad! If my mother had terminated me (which would have been a not unreasonable decision given her circs) then I wouldn't exist to be moaning about it, and her quality of live might have been better. Hard to tell, obviously.

[mm22bys]

My DS1 was born at 37w 2d at 8lbs 4, and DS2 was about 5 days younger (36.5 weeks, can't remember the exact number now, bad mummy I know!) - he was "only" 6lbs 4 though.

I did have more scans in both pregnancies than most women are offered, but declined the amnio and CSV. I honestly don't know what we would have done if problems had shown - my scans were completely "normal" so didn't have to cross that bridge. My scans were mainly to check on the size / growth of both fetuses / babies.

I would like another baby sometime, before I am too old, but am scared of having another "hard" pregnancy, and I don't think I could be fair to three children if number 3 also had DS2's problems...DS1 already isn't getting enough attention from me....

[Romy7]

i've held a baby they had no idea would live or die (also dd lol) and it was the going blue and stopping breathing that frightened me silly. i was never quite sure they were going to get her back each time. but different to knowing the child is expected to die and DNR, so not qualified to judge. v sad.

[Romy7]

i think that's her q - terminate or wait and go into labour naturally. it's been running for a few days, and lots of other posters offering experiences. i've never had to make that call though.