5.5yo struggling in group situations (not UK)

[BertieBotts]

Just sort of documenting seeing if anyone has any input for me.

We are living in Germany. DS age 5.5 is at "Kita" which is basically nursery/daycare (not school) - they all go there from about age 2-6. No diagnosis yet but he is in speech therapy to help with a lisp and not understanding/responding appropriately to sentence prompts (from developmental check up). So far, speech therapy has only focused on the "sh" sound.

We moved him from his previous Kita to this new one in November mainly because the old one was very big and busy and seemed to be stressing him out, the staff turnover was atrocious, he would make a bond/relationship with someone and then they would leave, he did not respond to the other staff members at all. He is very private. Bottles everything up and won't talk to you.

Anyway we noticed an immediate and sustained shift/improvement in his stress levels - we went from at least 1-2 meltdowns every day to a couple a week. This was a huge relief and I felt we had made the right choice.

However, they asked to speak to me this morning. I took DH even though he doesn't really speak German just because I am determined not to do all of this alone if I can help it.

They said he's in conflict with other children at least 3x per day. Hitting, throwing things, even spitting (once).
He picks on his little brother. Much worse than he does at home (I think they have a good relationship at home).
Dangerous behaviour e.g. piling up heavy things and pushing them over.
Doesn't engage with staff/doesn't want to talk to them. He speaks German fine and will engage if you spend time 1:1 with him, though he can be a little slow to warm up.
Difficult to communicate with him in general, as he will simply refuse to speak if he doesn't want to. When he does speak, often it's unclear whether he's recounting something that actually happened, a "wishful thinking" version, or something that has got mixed up in his head.
He seems stressed e.g. tense a lot of the time.

I was able to share that I also notice that when he is stressed he's very tense/holds his body in tension. Struggles with emotional regulation/impulse control.

It's worse if he's hungry or needs to use the toilet. He is often quite resistant to having it suggested that he needs the toilet. They did suggest that some children don't like using the bathroom when other children are in there, so they will let him know when it's empty if he prefers to use it then.

They want to build some positive experiences at Kita, so asked what he likes to do. Apparently he doesn't play lego/trains there, which is what he does most at home. When he first started, he liked to go into their "quiet room" with hama beads and a Tonie box. I mentioned this and they went "Ah!" in recognition - maybe they will encourage him to use that space if he seems stressed?

Because we moved Kita just before his 2yo developmental check the doctor said give it six months and then come back if the behavioural issues are still there, then we'd refer for autism/ADHD assessment. I am hoping for OT as well, but I don't know if we need the assessment first. Anyway I will phone his doctor.

Anything we could do immediately/while waiting for other input? I thought about suggesting shorter days at Kita, and building up to longer days. I could do that currently as I am not working, but unsure whether to suggest this or whether that would be a bad idea somehow.

I hope that other posters will be able to offer wise counsel on this one, @BertieBotts.

Thanks for the bump :)

I now have an appointment for assessment (not until November though) and an appointment to speak to his normal doctor in April, am hoping we can get referred to OT a bit sooner - just depends when they have space, I think.

@BertieBotts just wondering if you’re able to share an update, we have a similar-sounding 5.5 yo and also left the uk, now living in the EU.

He's in assessment for ADHD and ASD now. Had the observations but don't have the parent appointment for another couple of weeks. We actually ended up having to move house so we had to move childcare again and he started a totally new Kita in November. He's been really anxious about the change and luckily we ended up with a very understanding teacher who supports him very well. No reports of fighting or bad behaviour yet but he is being much more closely supervised and we'll see basically. I was upfront with the new Kita when he started and that's been helpful because they've been going much more slowly at his pace. I'm a bit surprised TBH how different it is this time around because last time we just winged it whereas this time it's really clear that he has some needs which we need to be aware of.

I've got more of a sense of how to handle him by reading about autism and sensory overload and the nervous system. He still gets overloaded and anxious very easily but it mostly happens at home.

Been finding these useful resources.

SENDcast podcast
Big Baffling Behaviours book by Robyn Gobbel
Self-Reg by Stuart Shanker
OT Butterfly Instagram
Occuplaytional Therapist on FB

He hadn't had any OT yet but I will wait and see what they suggest at the next meeting.

@BertieBotts thabk you for the resources, very helpful. We’ve been a bit baffled by our DS, his beahviour seems to have come out of nowhere just before turning 5 (previously got on well at nursery/pre-school) so we are wondering whether there is neurodiversity or some other behavioural challenge.

curious if you have had any luck with the toilet refusal? Ours is the same, very strong willed and not keen on using the loo at afterschool club (TBF they are vile!) or when engrossed in play at home, will refuse the toilet when asked but then wet himself. We also didn’t have this until a year or so ago so struggling to understand what or why this is happening.

He is very anxious around unfamiliar toilets still - mainly worried about unexpected sounds. He can explain this to us now rather than just say no he doesn't need to go - we haven't really found a solution for this other than trying to ensure that he goes to the loo before we leave the house, and then any places we go to regularly, I try to make sure we go into the toilets every time so he can get used to them and feel more comfortable in that environment. This does help - there are certain toilets that he feels better in than others.

He is especially worried about automatic flushes (which terrify him), other people flushing the toilet, using the hand dryer etc. But it is very difficult with public toilets because it is even smaller sounds like the cistern re-filling which bother him, and it's not always possible to wait until nobody has used the toilet for a long enough time. Sometimes he has more success with urinals, but I can't take him into the men's, so that only works if DH is with us. He is a little bit more comfortable if I hold my hands over his ears while going into the toilet, but this isn't very practical either. At BIL's suggestion we are looking into some ear defenders for him, currently we have a pair of old headphones but I keep forgetting to bring them.

Fairly often we just end up doing a wee outside. I try to take him away from where people can see as I'm conscious he's a bit too old really to be doing it.

At home - we got into more of a routine of insisting that he try before (next thing) would happen and now he will take himself off for a wee if he needs one. Poos both he and his younger brother will insist they don't need so we have a nightly ritual of trying for a poo before bed

I had noticed that a lot of the hyper/manic/silly/aggressive behaviour was linked to him either needing a wee, needing a poo, being hungry etc. So taking notice of the more subtle signs we were heading in that direction and reminding him to try for a wee or offering him a snack help.

Have you thought about using disabled toilets where they are separate?

Some people find post it notes can help with automatic flushes.

I hadn't TBH but in Germany they often need a Radar key anyway. I know we could buy one online - I might consider it if it becomes a problem. I am not convinced it would help that much though. Even when the toilets are deserted often just the fact they are unfamiliar is difficult. The best thing seems to be to find toilets we can frequent regularly with no pressure so he becomes more comfortable in them, because this does seem to help the most.

I tried to cover up the sensor with my hand at the last one we went to, but it didn't help because it seemed to be triggered by this just as much as it was triggered by standing up/walking away.