Does anyone have a dc who refuses to have lunch at school?

[tacal]

Hello, my ds (4.9) started school a few weeks ago. Next week he goes full time so he is expected to have lunch at school. He will be having packed lunch and has had lots of practise opening his lunch bag, taking his lunch out and eating it. So I was not expecting there to be any lunch related problems.

Yesterday his class visited the rooms they will be eating their lunch in. One room for school lunch and one for packed lunch. Ds has now decided there is no way he can stay at school for lunch. I think it is something to do with the room and the amount of people that will be in it. The teacher tried to talk to him about it today at hometime and ds was clinging to me crying saying he will be going home for lunch. He then refused to walk home so I had to carry him. (He refuses to walk when anxious).

I am not sure what to do. Do I force him to stay for lunch or say to school I am taking him home. The school say they would prefer him to stay for lunch. But I am worried this will make ds very anxious and make him not want to go to school.

What would you do?

[tacal]

claw2 awww I feel sad that you were excited about him eating 2 slices of bread then found out he didnt. It is early days. I hope he has a good weekend and is happy to go back to school on Monday.

Ineedmorepatience - it is really good to hear that your dd moved school and is now really happy and eating school dinners. It shows what a difference the right school can make. I really hope the same thing happens with my ds. I am still shocked that some people think it is acceptable to drag a small child away from their parent kicking and screaming. Especially when the parent is objecting! I cant get my head around how awful ds's old school was. I feel like I should make some sort of complaint but it would be a waste of time. Did your dd adjust to her new school quite quickly or did it take time?

[Ineedmorepatience]

Hi tacal I am coming to this really late but I am really glad you have found a better school for your Ds. We had a similar experience with Dd3 and we moved her in yr3. Her needs werent recognised at all at her old school and she was dragged off me kicking and screaming many times. She ate nothing and became an invisible mouse.

She has been in her lovely inclusive school for 2 years now and has thrived there, she eats school dinners!! and is gong away for the weekend with them in a couple of weeks. It hasnt taken a massive amount of support to achieve this, just good knowledge from many of the staff and understanding that she needs to be nurtured not tortured!

Good luck

[claw2]

Star I got excited at nothing, he didn't actually eat the bread, he choose it, but didn't eat it. I should know better than to ask 'what did you have for lunch' by now! I should know to be very specific and have asked 'what did you eat for lunch!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

DS ate 2 slices of bread?

Wow, I'd say well done ds!!!!

[claw2]

Tacal that is fantastic news!

Yesterday ds ate 2 slices of bread without butter at lunch time. Today his teacher wanted to have a word with me at pick up and told me that ds had been upset at lunchtime and was crying and hadn't eaten anything.

[tacal]

thank you claw2 it went really, really well. DS stayed for a full day and went into the busy lunch hall no problem. He said school was fun and teacher fantastic. It is completely different to his other school. I am sure we will encounter problems along the way but it wont be the constant fighting I had with other school. I am so glad to hear that things went well with your ds. Did he manage to eat anything?

theycallmestacy I am not sure how you deal with this problem to be honest. From what others have said to me on here I think the school should be trying to make adjustments so that your ds can eat his lunch and not feel anxious about it. I wouldnt be happy with my ds having to eat his lunch on a bench and being able to see food on the floor. Can you arrange a meeting with someone at the school to discuss it again and ask them to come up with an altenative?

[Theycallmestacy]

Ds 9 really struggles with lunch, he has a packed lunch but he can't bear to see other people eating there dinners, particularly school dinners.

Instead of eating at the table in the dinner hall, he eats on a bench. He dislikes this though as other children ask him why he eats there and he can see food smeared onto the floor. Not sure what the alternative is, I asked about him eat in another room but was told no due to supervision.

[claw2]

Well done Tacal, sounds promising and the fact they can admit they are not perfect and will work with you, I think is all parents want. Good luck today!

Yes ds started yesterday and all things considered it went well, thanks.

[tacal]

claw2 I feel so happy. My ds is starting at a new school tomorrow!! I cant believe it. The school only had one place left and I feel so lucky to have got it for ds. We went to see the class teacher and depute head (senco) after school hours and I could not believe the difference to ds's current school. Everything about the school seems so much better and nicer. They have a visual timetable in place for all children, they are happy to do home contact book. They are providing support in playground and lunch hall. They were honest and say they are not perfect but at least they seem to understand what ds might need and are willing to provide some support. They are even going to prepare a social story about having to go in through a different door (because of the problem ds had this week at his current school). Ds seemed excited about the classroom but I do feel sorry for him having to go to a new school tomorrow not knowing anyone and going into a busy lunchhall. At least it is only one day this week. He doesnt even have the correct uniform so will have to try and sort all that over the weekend.

Did your ds start school today? How did he get on?

[claw2]

Tacal, things like visuals, anxiety score, home contact book etc are so easy to implement, cost very little, take up very little time. You would think it would be the easiest thing in the world to ask for. In my experience, if anxiety isn't recognised by school, then school don't see the point and wont.

Most new schools take the 'lets wait and see' approach and want to wait and cross that bridge IF and when they come to it. IF they are not recognising anxiety and have nothing in place to help them recognise it, they dont see it as a difficulty/problem and say things as simple as visuals etc are not needed.

Its a vicious circle. A new school might be your best option, just be clear what you want. With ds's new school, we are taking the 'wait and see' option, however ds does have a named TA, a home/contact book to monitor his behaviours and anxiety levels and regular meetings, so we can 'wait and see' what is needed/not needed.

[tacal]

magso thank you for sharing your experience with me. I have been thinking how much it would affect me if ds came home for lunch every day. I would have to give up my volunteer work. My whole day would be planned around his lunch. I really hope he continues to stay in school for lunch. Thank you for the advice about reducing the days gradually if he does come home. You must be enjoying having lunchtimes to yourself now your ds is staying in school.

[magso]

I also used to bring ds home for lunch, whilst he was in infants (gradually reducing the days so he stayed in first 1 day then 2 days to integrate). It was not my choice, and was very inconvenient,(especially with work which had to stop) but it gave a chance for ds to relax, be put on the loo, and avoid trouble due to hunger in the afternoon. At home I could give him 1:1 and make sure he eat first then earned his play/tv. At school there was no one specific to ensure he eat before running off to play - so he always had a hunger meltdown in the afternoon, toileting accident - and clashed in the playground.
It was forced on me but I went along with it because it was so helpful to ds. Had I realised how many years it would go on, I would have been wise to put my foot down and force school to make adjustments not me!!
Once he was at sn school ( from age 7) the issues were all managed as a matter of course. Children with crowd and sensory issues had separate quiet supervised areas to eat, those having school lunch eat with an adult on each table to support good eating habits.
So if you start taking ds home for lunch make sure you know what you are taking on, and start with an integration plan so the school are aware from the start that they need to work towards a solution.
The other issue was the time element, due the short lunch break. I used to put something in the oven, collect ds by car ( there was not time to walk and eat) toilet& wash/eat/5 mins to play/back in car. The drive was part of his relaxation. Sometimes I could meet him with a picnic to eat in the park next to the school, as that was less rushed.
Frankly I suspect ds would have got his sn place sooner had I not made the adaptions rather than school!

[SuperiorCat]

If I'm completely honest it was a real pain in the bum to do it, it would have been impossible if I had been working, obviously it is not something that everyone can do, but it made it cope-able for him.

[tacal]

thank you to all for the excellent advice.

Superiorcat - my ds would love to come home for lunch every day. It was great you were able to have your ds home every day so he could have some time away. I will think about doing this if things dont work out, if the school let me!

claw2 shocked that a school with ASD unit attached is not better. Another school probably wont notice my ds's anxiety either but he may not be so anxious if they can do little things like use a visual timetable. His current school told me they are using one but he came home upset today because he thought lunch was last and gym was before lunch. My ds is high functioning. His current school have said they are willing to let his teacher go on a training course which is good (if it happens). I will have a big think about it all tonight. Good luck for tomorrow. I hope it goes well.

Inspace - I know what you are saying is correct and I know this is how I will have to be. I am struggling to be like this just now because the people who work in the school are not very understanding when I do. I will have to be stronger for ds.

geeandfree I hope your dd gets on well having lunch in the lunch hall. It is good that the school are helping her achieve this.

[geeandfeesmum]

DD refuses to eat lunch in the school lunch hall (special school). Last year, they let her have lunch in her classroom (She also stayed in there for assembly). This year, they are taking her in there but letting her leave when she is ready to.

Good luck

[InSpaceNooneCanHearYouScream]

I have had issues with school like this.... I did move my children and the new school is better but not much. I wouldn't recommend moving him. But what I now do is find out my rights are and insist on them. If you don't want him forcibly removed from you then you can ask that that doesn't happen again. If you want to take him home at lunchtime, you can. Stand up for him and yourself firmly. Keep having meetings and insist that as his parent, YOU know best and you should be supported. I know this sounds harsh but those staff are probably looking after 25 children. If your child has particular needs its going to take quite a bit of input from you to ensure his needs are met. It shouldn't be like this but it is unfortunately. Good luck

[claw2]

Tacal im glad I have been of some help!

Just try to ensure that if you do move your ds, that the next school are willing to try to understand, communicate and work with you and more importantly how they will do this.

I moved ds from smaller school to a school with an ASD unit being built, I thought ASD unit would equal better understanding, it didn't. It just equalled teachers who thought they knew best and everything there was to know about ASD after completing half a day training!

Ask yourself WHY you think this school are not noticing his anxiety and/or difficulties? Is another school likely to notice/identify difficulties? If not are they prepared to monitor your ds's anxiety/behaviours to enable them to identify/recognise his difficulties and how will they do this? What experience/training do they have, not of severe sn's or ASD in general, but of high functioning SN's/ASD? (I am assuming your ds is high functioning)

[SuperiorCat]

"and a big NO, small schools are not always better,"

Totally agree with this. In fact you will often find the best SN support, experience, tolerance and understanding in the schools that would have most MNers putting their houses up for sale if they discovered it was their catchment school, simply because they are used to dealing with children with very different needs.

To answer your question, DS came home for lunch every day at Primary as he just needed to escape. He didn't like the playground, he didn't like eating with the other children, he was scared of the hall where they ate, he wanted to be able to go to his own toilet and he wanted to be able to have private space to spin, twirl and flap which were his main coping mechanisms with the anxiety brought on by school.

[tacal]

You have been so helpful to me claw2. Thank you so much for taking the time to post this excellent advice for me. What you have said about small schools has really made me think ds could be in the wrong school. There is no willingness to understand, communicate and work with me. I think I will try to move him rather than keep feeling the way I do.

It makes me so sad thinking about your ds self harming. I really hope that he settles into the new school and they give him the support he needs. Good luck with settling him in. x

[claw2]

Tacal a home/school book can help, IF school use it correctly and know what it is being used for ie to help monitor behaviours and identify triggers for the behaviour, which will be helpful so both you and school are noticing them and decide where support is/isnt needed.

All it managed to achieve in ds's old school, was school thinking I was being critical and blaming them. For example I would write that ds had been self harming and had sores and he appeared confused about x,y,z. School would just get defensive and write that he wasn't confused and was fine!! I would then ask which methods they have used to establish that he wasn't confused and was fine and they would ignore my question!! So totally pointless!

I think firstly you need a school who are at least willing to acknowledge that children can present differently at home/school. Secondly that children can be very anxious in school, but not show outward signs in school.

'Fine' to some schools equals he is not screaming or throwing chairs, so therefore not a problem to them.

and a big NO, small schools are not always better, the worse MS school ds went to was small, one class per year. EXPERIENCE and EXPERTISE and above all else a willingness to UNDERSTAND, COMMUNICATE and WORK WITH PARENTS is what makes a school better.

There is no trumps when you have a kid with SN's, im sure its just as upsetting and worrying for you, as it is for me Ds never stops self harming (apart from if he doesn't have to attend school at all), it started when he was 5 and started school. We have times when self harming is reduced or increased, its how ds communicates his feelings. His self harming wont improve unless school deal with the underlying issues, his inability to express his feelings verbally, his social communication, interaction and how confusing he finds it.

Im hoping I have found a willingness to understand in his new school. If you have already tried with this school and tried again and they are just unwilling to work with you, then try another school

[tacal]

thank you for the advice claw2, it is very much appreciated. Did you find the home/school book helps. I think I could do with something like that in place for ds. I will also use your 'argument' with school about feeling fine. Cant stop thinking about school, I even went into another local school to see if they have any places and they have one place left. The school has a great reputation but it is a big school. The deputy head spoke to me and said they are 70% short on their allocation of teaching assistants so they can not guarantee ds would get much support from t/a's. The school he is at is small but I dont know what support he gets if any. Is small always better?

My problems seem small compared to yours. It is so sad that your ds was self harming. That must have been difficult to deal with and very upsetting. Do you worry he will start doing it again?

[claw2]

Tacal they sound like ds's old school, even when ds was self harming and school refusing, they were still insisting he was 'fine'. We also had the kids much 'worse' than ds conversations.

You and your ds's experiences of school are totally at odd's with what the school describe and you and your ds should be listened to. It is very common for children to present differently in school, hold it together, then show anxiety about school at home, where they feel safe and secure.

My 'argument' with school when they said he was 'fine' was well he is definitely showing signs of school related anxiety at home, what do you have in place in school to determine how he is feeling. How do you know that he is 'fine'. Looking 'fine' and feeling 'fine' are two separate things.

Parents evenings are crap, a 10 minute slot to tell you 'he is doing fine'

I would suggest a meeting to discuss your concerns. You could ask for a home/school book to communicate behaviours and to try and identify triggers for anxiety. Doesn't cost a thing and takes 2 minutes to read/fill out. Write in there your ds's anxiety and behaviours at home and school do the same.

An anxiety scale in school, where your ds is asked after each lesson to rate on a scale of 1-10 how he is feeling, to identify anxiety triggers. Again costs nothing and takes 2 mins.

Maybe then you and school can work together? Maybe this will help school to recognise his difficulties?

[tacal]

When I mention ds not wanting to come into school or being anxious about lunch time I have been told that the school has had children 'worse' than mine who cope. This is the attitude of these people that are around my ds and I dont even know who they are (guessing they are teaching assistants). DS is expected to just get on with it because he looks fine. Of course when I speak to head or deputy head they say they are a supportive school, ds is coping very well and nothing for me to worry about. I think I am getting a bit overwhelmed with it all to be honest.

Parents evening is a few weeks away so I will raise all my concerns then. But might start looking at other schools (if any of them have places).

It sounds like you have had a really stressful time with your ds. Well done for getting the statement and a place at a specialist school. You must feel very relieved to have it all in place for your ds.

[claw2]

I 'threatened' to home educate as the school/LA had failed ds very badly. This prompted the LA to provide a home tutor. Its a long story.

Ds will be starting a specialist indie school, after years of fighting for a statement. So I am feeling very confident about new school, as ds just couldn't cope in MS.

I don't think you are over reacting, schools are expected to make reasonable adjustments, but be careful, as this could be how school will view it, especially if its a school who don't have much experience of SN's.

Maybe you could ask for a meeting? list your concerns, your ds needs and ask what they plan on doing about this. Tell them your ds is crying and not wanting to come to school and is struggling with playtimes etc, etc.

[tacal]

did you home educate your ds for a year? how do you feel about him starting school this week?

I had a bit of a falling out with the school today. Ds had a hospital appointment this morning so he went into school around 10am. Because we were after 9am he had to go in a different door. This triggered complete refusal to go in. He was screaming and clinging to me. 3 different ladies (no idea who there were, maybe teaching assistants?) were very stern with him and tried to pull him away from me kicking and screaming. There was no way he was going through the 'wrong' door but the ladies looked determind to drag him through it.

I refused to let ds be taken away like that and insisted on seeing the depute head. We were told we would have to wait 15 mins which we did. All during this time I told ds he was going into school, he eventually said he would go if I took him to class.I asked but this was not allowed. The depute head arrived and said it was no problem to take him to the other door. Problem solved ds was happy.

I am so upset at the horrible way he was treated by every one except the depute head. There is no lunch time club and no support in place as far as I can tell except they are trying a visual timetable for him.

Am I over reacting? It is only day 15 of school for him. It just didnt seem right to let them take him away kicking and screaming. I feel so sad right now. Should I look for another school?