Moondog training - thank you

[Bluebirdonmyshoulder]

Thanks to moondog and your colleague for a fascinating day yesterday, really enjoyed it. Thanks for the links you emailed me, haven't had a chance to look at them yet but I will.

And to messmonster for organising, and for the chat too!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I agree IA. On reflection I would not be teaching her the time at all. But she is a competetive little minx and she is motivated by whatever her brother is doing which made me fall for it and get started, but with the luxury of not worrying about speed of acquisition iyswim.

[moondog]

Also a gerared clock vital eventually so kid can see how the hands work together and that they only go in one direction.
Timetimer and Joseph Joseph timers also better than egg times imho as they more closely approximate the look and workings of an analogue clock.

[moondog]

If I did it again I would introduce only one hand at a time. Build-a-clock if you like. Still not sure whether I would start with big or little. Probably big actually.
Five...six...seven.
I wouldn't introduce 'past' at the outset as means nothing without he other hand.
Also would not go five..ten...fifteen,, quarter as assumes knowledge of multiples and fractions which probably not there (when teachers say they want to teach 'quarter past' I try to get them to understand they will be teaching it as a label and not to assume meaning of what 'quarter' is).

I'd have a clock with every minute labelled.

Only after that would introduce small hand and notion of 'past'

To polish to fluency, SAFMEDS and track on an SCC.
Then I'd introduce minute hand.

[Inappropriatelyemployed]

But then many children don't learn to tell the time until they are 7 or 8 so perhaps it's a bit easier to introduce concepts like time more naturally at that age.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Time. My 4 year old is quick, but I was able to fast realise that teaching half-past had to be broken into 'half past from 12-5' and 'half past from 6-11' because the little hand is below the number on the one side and above it on the other .

And so what?

I have learned that a million tiny lessons is far better and quicker than banging on about a greater concept the child has no chance of learning and then giving up. If I had to spend a whole month on half-past 1 before moving on to half-past 2, so friggin what?

[moondog]

That's the greatest gift ABA has given me.
Learning how to break a task down and consider each step and what might aid the child to learn it.
I had to work it out myself as none of those around my child have the slightest idea how to think like this (apart from those I have procured.).

[tryingtokeepintune]

Thank you.

Wished I had thought of the blue and pick papers.

[moondog]

It is very good indeed.
It should also give you the confidence to design your own task analyses.
We do these in two columns, these being 'Adult does' and 'Child does'

So if you were looking at having breakfast for example it would start with Adult to: Say to child ' It's time for breakfast'
Child to: Walk to the table

Time telling is one of my pet things to teach. It is so complex and most teachers haven't a clue how to break it down, nor do they realize what pre-requisites are needed to really get it (eg big and little hand discrimination, hands move clockwise, concept of counting in multiples of five and so on).
I went throguh it all with my children and even stuck a piece of blue paper over every big clock hand in the house (and a pink over every little one) to aid discrimination.

Regrouping just another term for carrying and borrowing.

[tryingtokeepintune]

Moondog I just looked properly at the Basic Skills Checklists by Breitenbach and it is soooo good. Lots of ideas on where to go next. If only I had it before I struggled teaching ds to tell the time as I did not make sure he REALLY knew the hour hand and the minute hand.

However, what does (no regrouping) and (no renaming) on addition and subtraction mean?

Eg. Double digit numbers (one regrouping), double digit numbers (one renaming).

[moondog]

[StarlightMcKenzie]

by the way, my life doesn't revolve around minstrels. I just had a packet to keep them in line on the journey to the meet up on friday. The fact I have any left is quite frankly a miracle.

[moondog]

Sounds great.
Just like Karen Pryor, lobbing the occasional fish at a reluctant dolphin.
You really must read DSTD.
Another fun read is 'What Shamu taught me about life love and marriage'.

People often focus on the EIBI aspect of ABA and forget (not you obviously) that these scientific principles are in action, all over the place and all of the time. It's the smart folk that harness them.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I've also tried a couple of

'Shall we do headsprout now?'

Don't answer that, I have a better idea. How about we have a minstrel first, and then do Headsprout?

By mixing it up all over the place they just do as they're told because it's a good life.

Not sure how long it will last but it's good for now.

[moondog]

When B does her training the length and breadth of the county as she does, I always know as I hear people talking about 'that woman throwing sweets around'

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Incidently, I tried throwing a few free minstrels around yesterday and today. Boy have I found two very complient and happy children.

In fact they both did lost of work for NOTHING having already had the minstrels.

[moondog]

Bluebird said she had decided to treat her dd like her rescue dogs.
Sounds great.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'Which is why animal trainers are so fab at working with children with SN.'

But if you say that to any professional that I have come across, they'd be treating you as inhumane and possibly requesting SS take a look.

[moondog]

Which is why animal trainers are so fab at working with children with SN.
Minmal language, lots of gesture, unambiguous instruction, instantly reinforcing desired behaviour and so on...

[signandsmile]

Indeed, I think the sad thing is that if i hadn't been a professional myself I probably wouldn't have the confidence to challenge their views, as the 'ignorance' was from the HT of a special school, and another HT from a MS school with an ASD unit.

It makes me soooo mad

it's interesting, now I think about it, that I found myself treating him like a Deaf child, which means if I touch him now (tap his shoulder for example) he tends to be more likely to give me attention.

[moondog]

It infuriates me when people spout nonsense like that based on nothing more then prejudice. How pgrimly pleasing it must have been for you when they shut up about it.

I think your point about having to look at the signer is very important. You don't have to loo kwhen someone speaks. What is so great about PECS-that mandatory physical approach and 'pester' for access to reinforcers.
Also why I am a bit dubious about PECS style apps. A danger that this will be bypassed.

[signandsmile]

INteresting... (our school uses the middle line paper for their 'handwriting' books. it really helps)

mess yeah, he developed them over about 2years, (we started signing with him when he was just under 2, [he had the same 7 spoken words from about 14 months to over 4] he was purely receptive for about the first 6 months, and then started to produce.. he was upto 3 and 4 sign 'sentences' by the time he was 4. We always used SSE (Sign supported English, so BSL signs but english word order and grammar, and we spoke at the same time.)

I am fluent, so just signed everything I said, and he picked up the signs he wanted/needed. (altho I was using short clear sentences only).

I just wanted to give him a method to communicate, but actually I think it benefitted him in other ways, using sign language means you have to look at the person who is 'talking', and I think he is more NT in this than he would have been without this... You are also using facial expression and body movement to emphasise emotion, which makes it easier to 'read' what someone is feeling.

moondog I am happy to discuss the professionals responses,(crappy as they were!) they fell into two catagories, basic ignorance; "signing slows aquisition of speech", "signing does not work with children with ASD, as it is transitory" and faux professional. "we don't use SSE, we use Signalong". Really funny thing is when I tounge in cheek asked them for the evidence behind the choice of signalong, as (of course) they must have made that decision on the basis of evidence of outcomes for kids like ds...??? it never arrived, but they stopped insisting we change what was clearly working for ds. (I knew they used signalong instead of makaton because it was cheaper, and they didn't expect kids like ds to be capable of using more complex signing systems like SSE).

Sorry huge post

[moondog]

If you are practicing letters on their own, think of criteria for correct and to begin with, you need to have one only. What will make the letter a 'correct' and what an LO (learning opp)
If you are practicing 'o' for example, it might be that the two ends join.
If a 't', that the horizontal stroke crosses each side of vertical line.

The one minute timings mean the child can produce a lot of output.
I combing PT and TAG so have done a lot of this sort of stuff with my own children. They hear the click if they have reached criteria but it's still happening in a minute.

I'm aware we moved very fast through these things but time was of the essence. There will be a day's PT workshop at the upcoming conference (I will be there, making a niusance of myself) so well worth attending.

Do not underestimate value of that lined paper, where you have a middle line and a top one so it's easier to see where letters start/finish. I cannot for the life of me work out why school's do not use this and yet then moan that kids have poor writing. They have no salient guides to help them! Bonkers! .

[moondog]

The principle is that there are modalities in and out.
See page 38 of this u/g thesis (it's supervised by Jesus Rozales-Ruiz, one of the kings of PT hence inclusion)
Here
So for handwriting, the input would be maybe 'hear' (if someone dictating) or 'think'). The output is 'write'

[tryingtokeepintune]

No, not private.

I just wanted to know how to use Precision Teaching for handwriting as the saying out loud bit would probably not apply?

[messmonster]

400 signs - OMG! that's amazing.

My little DD has about 12 that she does reliably and another 30 or 40 that she's aware of and can approximate when modelled for her.

What's the secret ?