The whole 'Aspies can't lie' thing...is it 'can't' lie, or 'lie really, really, badly'?

[Lougle]

I'm suspecting DD1 has Aspergers, as you know.

She was warned on pain of death not to tell DD1 what she has for her birthday. Today, as we were giving DD1 her presents, DD2 was saying 'I do not know who that present might be from...' 'I do not know what is inside that present', etc.

It was so incredibly unconvincing

Is that something that would be typical of aspergers, or just a kiddie thing, or neither?

What do your children with aspergers do?

[swanthingafteranother]

I also don't want to worry you Moose but we have done the heart to heart with ds1 (who is only mildly something whatever he is, but mostly NT) over last few years over a no of things - and what I feel is that he likes the heart to heart aspect (he feels we are on his side, that we are trustworthy, loving parents etc etc) but it has MADE NO IMPRESSION in terms of his responses. Talking about how he should behave really doesn't make any difference. When the parents do the talking. He has to come up with ideas and feelings or it goes in one ear and out the other.
All that works is to put into action the stuff we want him to do.

[swanthingafteranother]

I think it is a sign that he is NT that he is lying earlier. I remember teacher saying to me about Ds1 (when he was 8) that he was incredibly honest, and never lied (as if there was somethign slightly unusual about that in her experience of teaching - as usually people tried to cover up when they had done something wrong)
Now Ds1 lies like a trooper (he is 12) and started at about 11. We were very shocked, but various people have told me it is a "breaking away" forging your own identity sort of developmental stage, that you come through eventually, unless you are like Billy Liar.
I wonder whether the best thing is not to be too heavy handed about it, and try it make it easier for them to tell the truth. I think if you are discovered lying and get told off it is even more likely that you make further efforts to cover up/cover your tracks. And that is where the problems begin, a sort of web of deceit to avoid detection and punishment..

I think with Ds1 we've made the frequent mistake of getting more upset about the lying that about the thing he lied about. I now see that perhaps if he hasn't done his homework and pretends he has the best course of action, would be perhaps to just make him do it, immediately or something else useful [!] rather than being drawn into a long moral discussion about the evils of lying. Personally, I think they BLANK all of that, and resolve to lie harder next time.

I also think children do have a fantasy life where they are omnipotent and that contributes to the lying..the trick is to get them to feel omnipotent, independent, resourceful without the lying. Think Tom Sawyer.

[moosemama]

Aargh! Ds2 - nt - is driving me scatty with lying at the moment. I have caught him out in at least half a dozen lies since last Friday and he has always been my best behaved, most trustworthy dc. All his teachers have always raved about what a lovely trustworthy and reliable boy he is as well.

We have just had tears and traumas because I've caught him taking toys to school for the second time in less than a week (it's against school rules). This time it was just pokemon trading cards, but last week it was his Nintendo DS!

I know it's developmental and they all go through it at some stage, but I'm that my lovely boy is being so dishonest and that he feels the need to lie to me/us.

We've just had a long heart to heart. I've explained how disappointed I am in him, asked if he has anything on his mind and why he thinks he keeps telling lies - he said he doesn't know. I told him that he can come to me about anything at all, if he needs to talk I am always here and that if he is tempted to do something that breaks the rules or is less than honest he should come and talk to me first and we will sort something out together.

Then I explained how it made me feel to be lied to, ie disappointed, hurt and sad and that I have a BIG thing about liars and not trusting people and he sobbed and sobbed.

He's promised it won't happen again - but then he's an 8 year old boy - so I'm not expecting miracles.

Haven't a clue if I am going about this the right way, as he's the first nt child I've been through this with.

Anyone been there, done that? Any advice?

[KOKOagainandagain]

DS1 lies about DH all the time - saying that he has been mean to him, he wants him to leave (or die - he's not really fussed) and demanding to know if I am going to divorce him. 'Being mean' is the term DS1 uses to cover everything he is asked to do and everything he does not want to do - which is anything that he is asked to do. Then when DH does lose his temper and shouts or walks away DS1 feels vindicated. This is not all the time. Less than me but then I don't suffer verbal and physical abuse daily from DS1

[BeeMom]

Bee, when asked a direct question that she wants to be evasive about, will respond "I can't tell you".

She will not lie ever, but will try to opt not to tell the truth (REALLY good for a laugh). However, if I ask her not to share something (like tell Daddy what his Christmas pressie is) she will carry the secret to her grave - even if someone asks her what she gave him after the fact, she refuses to tell.

It's all or nothing with her :)

[ChristmasTreegles]

DS2 can lie, but have to say he isn't very good at it, thankfully. Such as "I got all green cards today, mummy, but don't look in my book, okay?" (home-school book, where it's actually written how he did that day)

He definitely argues. But then so does DS3 (NT) who is 3yo. So when the two of them are arguing, it gets quite hairy - have to separate them into time outs or to their rooms just to keep the damage to a minimum.

[madwomanintheattic]

That's v funny.
(Did she?)

Swan, ds1 is incapable of telling the truth about brushing teeth, washing, homework etc. it's so absolutely ingrained that I imagine he has forgotten what the truth is regarding such matters. The responses are complete auto-pilot.

[Lougle]

Ok, then, on the subject of truth....

DD2 overheard me in the shop on Saturday. I was unaware.

My DSis has quite strong views on various things, and I was aware that DD was having a girly party tea, but she has a DS, so might be offended if I didn't cater specifically for him.

Today, at the party tea, DD2 marched up to DSis and said:

"Aunty X, will you go absolutely nuts if DCousin has to have the girl plates?"

I could have killed her, right there and then

[swanthingafteranother]

Ds2 lies all the time about Homework. Brushed Teeth. Whether the telly is on or Not.
However he usually tells the truth about other stuff Like...You look Fat. And he tends not to exaggerate anything, so what happened at school is generally true. He prefaces things with I don't want to tell you this BUT...
I think he is quite sophisticated in his use of language generally, and can manipulate with it. I wonder whether he just believes it when he lies, ifyswim, sort of magics the homework away in otherwards?

[DeafLeopard]

DS lies but very badly. He doesn't realise that his lie is so outrageous that we would never believe it for a second.

And like others have said, he argues.

He would make a great barrister, cos he keeps going and going and going until you give in.

[ouryve]

DS1 lies really blatantly. He doesn't believe that he is lying, though. He has a real difficulty separating real life and truth from the little world in his head where he is never wrong and never does anything bad.

[madwomanintheattic]

Will try and find it...

[moosemama]

Apologies for the hijack.

Madwoman - we need to revive our old thread.

[moosemama]

Oh dear. Poor ds. Can't believe they still can't understand that they need to be supporting those skills, he isn't just going to suddenly get them by osmosis.

Cheap Christmas though.

My boys didn't ask for all that much this year either, I was both impressed and relieved when they wrote their lists. It's WW3 round here as well, either ds1 and dd or ds1 and ds2 - can you spot the common link there?

Poor you on your own with all that as well, bet it feels like it's been a week already.

Ummmm .... that'd be a no on the diary, although things have been very quiet on the neuro front since the seizures, as if it was all building up to a crescendo and now it's discharged - if that makes any sense.

Pleased to report dh has improved no-end. I think the neuro stuff really scared him this time and it was a bit of a wake-up call. I'm still not able to fully trust him, but things have definitely improved and he's really stepped up to the plate and started taking his responsibilities more seriously.

[madwomanintheattic]

Ds not good. Got evicted from his grade-skip maths class as he can't cope with the responsibility of getting himself there and organized on his own (well, duh.)

He wrote his Christmas list with 'nothing' on it underlined.

And is spending about 50% of his time at home pushing dd2 around. She isn't helping by retaliating, so mostly it is like living amidst ww3.

And dh is away for the week with work (he left at 4am Saturday, so it was routine change at the weekend, which never works well...)

That's a long time until your appointment... Are you keeping a diary?

[moosemama]

Ok I guess. Plodding on.

To be honest I'm just trying not to think about it all at the moment and attempting to look forward to Christmas.

I had my EEG appointment through, but had to change it as it would have been impossible to get to between school runs. It's rebooked for the week before Christmas now. Still haven't heard when my MRI will be and nothing from the Neuro. Dh is supposed to be calling her secretary today, but I bet he's forgotten.

How's things with you? Ds?

[madwomanintheattic]

I'm sure they are related.
How are you?

[moosemama]

Crikey madwoman - you just described ds1 perfectly!

[madwomanintheattic]

That's ds1 as well. if we're having a really good day, he can argue and cry at the same time, at the sheer injustice of not winning.

[moosemama]

Greensleeves, I hear you - I have an 'arguer' too. Endless arguing, never backing down - it's exhausting isn't it.

[Greensleeves]

My Aspie never lies

He doesn't need to, because he ARGUES

and argues, and argues, and argues

[madwomanintheattic]

I remember celebrating with my friend when her ds deliberately threw a spelling bee (he was 14 and the regional final was due to be held on the same day as the youth club paintball trip). He misspelled an easy word, and when she asked him afterwards, he totally lied through his teeth about it being too hard.

We celebrated for a week. For him, it was a huuuuuuuge step towards a deliberate manipulation to get what he wanted! (We only celebrated in secret, obv). He's very obviously on the spectrum, and this was first lie. Awww.

[Lougle]

Hmm, ok, so the upshot is, everyone's different .

I think DD2 was trying to be really good, but couldn't bring herself to say nothing and needed me to know that she was being good, hence the extremely bad acting.

[silverfrog]

dd2 can lie, and does so when it suits her.

she does not like being wrong, so will tell white lies/fibs (ie "oh yes, I thought it was that" when told she is wrong about somehting, and will swear black is white to this effect)

the not being wrong extends to not being wrong/told off so she will lie about having done/not done somethign if she thinks she will get told off for it.

she can be very good at ignoring things she doesn't want to hear, and then saying "I didn't hear you" or "I didn't realise you meant me " (very unconvincing), and then burst into tears (her default defence) when called on this.

[Ineedalife]

Dd1 tells lies but like Leonies LO, she doesnt know the difference between reality and fantasy. When she was a teenager I actually couldnt tell when she was lying to me, she totally believed what she was saying was true.

It has got her in to all sorts of trouble over the years

She doesnt have a diagnosis but I believe she has Aspergers and ADHD.

Her lying has damaged our relationship because I dont trust her.

Dd3 has occasionally tried to lie to me, mainly about personal hygiene but she is absolutely rubbish at it
Thank goodness I dont think I could go through that again.