Could DD have Aspergers/ASD when she has such a vivid imagination?

[NonAstemia]

DD is 9 and does have lots of Aspergers/ASD traits. The reason I always thought that she probably isn't on the spectrum is that she has a very vivid imagination. She makes up long and convoluted stories (she's currently on page sixtysomething of the novel she's writing ) and plays for hours with her model animals. She's got a couple of friends that she plays with and they play imaginative games, however DD is the one that drives this; she dictates the plot, assigns everyone else their roles and has to really be pushed to compromise and let anyone change the game slightly. She won't play with her animals with anyone else; she puts them away when people come round. She loves me to play with them (I only do this occasionally now she's older) but again she dictates exactly what she wants you to do; she's extremely prescriptive.

My question is, for those of you who have DCs on the spectrum, do any of your children engage in imaginative play and storytelling? I'd read that one of the primary characteristics of someone with ASD is their inability to use 'social imagination'. Is that the same as imaginative play or is that something different?

Forgive my ignorance please!

[Ineedalife]

Bless her

[NonAstemia]

Sorry Ineed, hadn't realised I'd cross-posted with you. DP and I both have a pretty ironic sense of humour, and DP has always used humour with a sprinkling of sarcasm to diffuse tense situations between DD and me, so I guess she's learnt sarcasm and irony over the years. DP's humour used to send DD into a rage, although she's better now and sometimes laughs along or joins in. Similarly her Grandad is always teasing her and she gets furious with him and is quite rude to him. They adore each other though and bait each other for hours. I suppose noone likes being teased though, really, do they?

I'll try bringing up some idioms that she wouldn't have heard of and see how she reacts. Poor child is under a microscope at the moment!

[NonAstemia]

Er... sort of... I really appreciate your input Timandra. I guess that's the thing with it being a spectrum; people on that spectrum are going to have very differing characteristics and ways of manifesting their autism.

[Ineedalife]

Non, I think because your Dd is bright she is able to learn how to use things such as sarcasm. Dd3 can also use sarcasm to a degree ie she could say "yeah, I like that alot, not" but she misses sarcasm in daily conversations and she also takes things very literally which can make her seem very gullible. She has grown up with 2 teenage sisters in the house so she has been exposed to a fair amount of this type of language.

When we spoke to the MH nurse at CAMHS who specialises in ASD he said he meets lots of Autistic, bright children who are able to learn responses and ways to use language but they don't necessarily have the natural language skills that NT children have.

The SALT that DD3 saw suggested to us to explain idioms to Dd3 because once she has been told what they mean she remembers but she cannot instictively work them out and she takes them literally eg by looking out of the window and laughing when the SALT said "It's raining cats and dogs" she was unable to explain what this might mean.

[Timandra]

The thing is every child on the spectrum has their own particular profile.

My DD1 gets sarcasm if family use it and can also use it herself. What she struggles with is when less familiar people use it, particularly her peers.

People may tell you that your child can't be autistic because she does or doesn't do a certain thing. That is rubbish. It is the overall picture which matters and the effect that picture ahs on the child's ability to function in everyday life.

Does that help?

[NonAstemia]

Aaaarrggh!

You're right tough! I'll read 'Aspergers' and see how much fits.

[NonAstemia]

I've reserved 'Aspergers' and 'Freaks, Geeks...' from the library so maybe that will clarify things a bit more for me. Yesterday we went to a HE group, and again she was the first one there (the only child there in fact!) when a little girl was crying. I tried using some sarcasm with her yesterday (not being nasty or anything) to see if she got it, and she did. Then when her dad arrived yesterday and asked if she enjoyed the group she said 'oh no it was rubbish and the worst thing ever' with a deadpan face and then started grinning (she really enjoyed it). Would a child with aspergers do this?

Sorry, I feel like I'm asking really stupid questions! Hopefully I'll be much better informed after reading the Atwood book.

[Timandra]

The lack of empathy associated with ASD seems to be related to people's inability to read the more subtle signs that people are upset or distressed in some way.

If my DDs saw someone in tears or shouting for help they would be there to help like a shot. However if I'm upset about something it is far easier to hide it from them (and my DH) than it is to hide it from my friends.

They also take people as read so if someone says they are OK they will accept that as the truth. It isn't that they don't care that this person might be trying to be brave or considerate and hide their true feelings. It just wouldn't occur to them that the person concerned could be lying.

These things can make them appear to lack empathy whereas they are extremely kind and caring when they can see that there is a need.

[NonAstemia]

Thanks so much - lots more food for thought here. DD has always been what I thought was empathetic to others' pain; if a child falls down in the playground, for instance, she'd be straight over there to pick them up. Yet she doesn't see when a child is giving her very clear signals to back off.

I will keep reading and I think I'm going to ask the GP for a referral. I'm feeling a bit baffled by it at the moment so I'll do some reading of the forum and books people have kindly recommended on here, and see whether that makes things any clearer.

[Jennylee]

lacking imagination, it can mean social imagination as in social situations, not have the 'mind reading skills' to get the non -verbal cues and understand what is going on in the same way as everyone else does automatically. not so much the making up stuff kind of imagination. Empathy is confusing too it does not mean sympathy, in ASD context it means knowing and feeling what the other person is feeling using intuition. I used to say my son cannot have aspergers, he has a vivid imagination and lots of empathy. But it is the medical jargon use of these words not the common use of these words, slightly different meaning of these words, can confuse the hell out of people. don't know if that makes any sense, but we looked up ASD and thought he didnt have it. when we read aspergers by tony attwood , thats when we understood what was really meant by lacks imagination, lacks empathy

[Timandra]

My DD played beautifully with a psychologist during her play assessment. She did things she would never do with another child. I don't really understand why she did it but she still got a diagnosis.

It would be interesting to see if she can transfer her skills to playing with her peers. If nothing else it will help her to feel more socially successful as she gets older if she can be more cooperative.

[shoppingbagsundereyes]

Bloody iPad - intonations not into nations!

[shoppingbagsundereyes]

Ds' diagnosis is aspergers traits not disorder. He has a marvellous imagination, plays beautifully with other kids, has normal eye contact and normal speech into nations. His aspergers comes out in the need to control, for routine and in general emotional immaturity ( so cries much more readily than most 6 yr old boys). Perhaps your dd has traits too?

[NonAstemia]

Thanks both for the valuable advice. Timandra I'll check out that forum. Ineed she sounds very similar to your DD!

I am a bit confused now... I sat down and played with DD today, with her animals, and she played an imaginative game beautifully and cooperatively! We played a vet game with her animals, and although she was very keen to direct me, when I wouldn't be directed she was perfectly happy to play alongside and with me. I really focused on ensuring that it was cooperative, imaginative play and as far as I can tell, it was. She loved it and didn't want to stop playing; I know I'm going to be fending off incessant requests to play with her now, as she keeps saying 'I wish we hadn't had to stop playing I was having a really good time'.

God I don't know whether I've been making a mountain out of a molehill or what to think. Is it possible to have Aspergers and still be able to play cooperatively like that?

[Ineedalife]

I know I am back tracking abit non but I just wanted to say the my Dd3 is also very tall and looks older that she is.

Most people forget that she is only 9 and still believes in the tooth fairy and FC.

Despite this she actually doesnt realise that she is not an adult, she makes no definition between talking to a child or an adult.

She finds it very difficult to follow the other girls conversations often they talk to fast and flit from subject to subject. Adults are more predicatable than children too. There is one girl who often throws her arms around Dd3 and it makes her really uncomfortable, she doesnt really do hugging.

She also comes up with inventive solutions not not doing things like toughs Dd, she was supposed to practise a breathing exercise designed to help with anxiety, it involved breathing in though her nose and blowing bubbles into a milkshake as she breathed out. She really couldn't get the hand of it [she has coordination issues] so she dribbled milkshake all over the task sheet and said "there they will think I have done it now!!"

She is very funny and very lovely but also extremely hard work at times and regularly growls at us when she is cross with us. She is rapidly heading towards secondary so we have to decide what is the best way forward for her.

I would love to HE her for secondary but sadly it is really not an option for us.

If you could find the money for a private DX things would move much quicker and at least you would know one way or the other. Dd3's DX has really helped me to understand her. Her lovely SENCO is in the process of working through a programme with her at school to begin the process of explaing her DX to her as she is asking a lot of questions relating to appointments and social skills groups now.

Another book that is worth a read is "Freaks, Geeks and Asperger Syndrome" by Luke Jackson he wrote it when he was 14 so it is from a teens point of view.

Am rambling now and avoiding doing housework so will go and get on with it

[Timandra]

A diagnosis usually really helps you to get support in school but not a whole lot more. I know that, at the moment, that isn't relevant to you.

The only thing I would say is that is takes a very long time. My DD1 started refusing school when she started high school. She was quickly completely out of school and referred to CAMHS. It then took a whole year of assessments and meetings to get her a diagnosis and a further six months to get her a finalised statement naming a mainstream unit in the same school.

Eighteen months is a long time to wait if for some reasons it becomes appropriate for your DD to re-enter the school system. If you already have a diagnosis the process would probably be considerably shorter.

In terms of looking for evidence for a diagnosis I would look for evidence of all of the triad of impairments. When my DDs were diagnosed the triad was the criteria they had to meet. They didn't really even consider traits which don't come under it, although this will change next year with the new diagnostic criteria.

There is a lovely forum for parents of children who have or may have ASD here. It is very sensible and supportive and the people who post have a wealth of experience they would be willing to share with you. I highly recommended a look at the 'You know there's Autism in the family when...' thread. It made me feel like I had come home! I have learned a phenomenal amount from the forum and they have been a valuable support when things were very difficult.

[NonAstemia]

Thanks for that Tough I'll bear that in mind as an option.

Overall the HE has gone well, I think. It's been a rollercoaster of adjustment, not helped by the fact that I was feeling really low a couple of months ago and really wasn't sure if I could continue. DD was really resistant and reluctant to learn new things and I was exhausted with it. I was hoping to rekindle her joy in learning and discovering things, which seemed to have vanished over the last year or so. I always did have reservations about HE because we have such an intense relationship and I never managed to teach her a damn thing when she was little. it was only when she started nursery that she started making these huge strides. But the older she's got the easier I've found it to communicate with her and teach her things. on a good day it's fantastic; we've been learning about atoms and electrons the last couple of days and that went really well. The thing is overcoming her initial resistance to doing something new, and for me not to take that personally or rise to her provocative behaviour. Now we're both getting to know that even when she doesn't want to try something or settle down to do work, the vast majority of times she'll end up enjoying it and getting a sense of accomplishment. That gives me the determination to push through, and is slowly getting through to her that it's not so bad. It helps that she goes off to her dad's every other weekend and we can be more flexible with how long she stays with him now we're not constrained by the school week. She also goes up to my parents for a week or two quite often, which gives me a break to recharge and miss her a bit! If I don't get regular breaks from her then we drive each other (and DP) up the wall.

I've always thought that DD would really struggle at secondary school, so I'm contemplating HE all the way through. I do worry about the socialisation aspect of having to get on with people at school and whether she's missing that being HE. But then I think that school can be hell on earth for kids who don't 'get' the social rules, and I wonder whether making them stay a part of that helps them understand the rules better or just makes them very unhappy?

[NonAstemia]

Tough I could see DD doing something like that! Did it cost you a lot to go down the private route? I bet as your DD gets older she'll have friends. It's just meeting someone she clicks with, isn't it. More difficult if she's quirky but still going to happen I bet.

[NonAstemia]

Thanks Timandra that explains it a bit more for me. I'll try playing with her tomorrow and see how much she'll cooperate with me in that way. Any other pointers on what to look for would be gratefully received.

If many professionals are likely to dismiss the possibility of DD being on the spectrum because she appears to play imaginatively (and also that she can be very empathetic and seem so socially confident), is there much to be gained by struggling for a diagnosis. I know from talking to people that it can be a really arduous and frustrating process. I'm not intending to send her back to school any time soon, so would it be worth it?

Hothead Daphne Keen looks great but expensive! We're near London but I'm imagining the fees would be high, no?

Thanks so much everyone for your responses and advice. They are much appreciated.

[NonAstemia]

Tough it is heart breaking, isn't it, when you see them trying to make/sustain friendships and floundering. DD did seem to have an easier time socially in Yr3, I think because she was no longer the biggest and loudest in the school as she was in infants (and she'd changed schools half way through infants too), and now she's left a lot of her old classmates greet her like a celebrity when they see her - usually the girls, strangely enough. But there was still so much stress and conflict around it all. That's really interesting that your DD also does the hissing thing. What do you think that is about? DD does it to express displeasure at home as well, like a very angry cat. She does this unconscious tooth grinding thing too, which drives me fucking nuts as I'm hypersensitive to high pitched sounds (DD is not the only odd one in this family ).

[Timandra]

The thing which is significant is her inability to cooperate with her peers to create scenarios jointly. Children should be able to work together to play imaginary games.

My DD2 is very like yours in that she can only play them her way. She can't see any merit in another person's thoughts or ideas and she can't understand their need to participate in order to derive pleasure from the game. This is how her problem with social imagination becomes apparent.

Lots of professionals will dismiss a parent with concerns about ASD because the child plays imaginatively. They don't understand that the nature of the imaginative play is important. Children with ASD often struggle to engage in cooperative or joint imaginative play.