Tribunal - NO statement

[Claw3]

Morning everyone, just an update for those who have helped and supported me along the way.

After Tribunal ds did not get a Statement. Seems the recommendations of experts were overruled and the Tribunal took more notice of 'school say he doesnt need this help'

But on the plus side, since changing schools ds is 100% happier and is receiving much more help than he did previously at his old school.

Thanks to everyone who has helped and supported me and listened to my moaning!

[Claw3]

I suppose it depends of what your ds's needs are and the only way to find out, is to assess him. Once your ds has been assessed both yourself and the school would have a better idea of exactly what his needs are. School might well say they are meeting his needs, my arguement would be how they know what his needs are, unless his needs have been assessed.

If the only way your ds can progress is through one to one support, i doubt the school would provide this. I also doubt the LA EP would be specific with recommending this. Ds's LA EP recommended for example 'a level of one to one support'. School say he gets a level of one to one support ie the class teacher can help him, if and when he needs it! But they fail to say, if and when he needs it, so how can the teacher help him!

So the only way for ds to get the one to one support that has been recommended is with a statement. A statement has to be specific in exactly how many hours of one to one support and exactly where and when he needs this support.

[Becaroooo]

I guess I think of SA as a last resort???

In some ways I want to give the school time to show me their way is working (or not as the case may be!) and move on from there.

Thanks for all the advice x

[Claw3]

Its a shame the school wont support you in a request for SA. I suspect like most school they are under a lot of pressure from the LA to provide for children from their own budget.

One thing i will say is that the whole process has taken me almost 2 years, so if you did apply for SA next year, it could possible take this long. But you know your ds better than anyone else and if dont feel it is the right the move atm, dont be pressured into something you dont want to do.

Another thing is if or when you do decide to request SA, all reports have to be no more than a year old, something which might be worth bearing in mind.

[Becaroooo]

He is in year 3 claw and going up to year 4 in sept.

He has struggled since the start of formal learning in year1 and his old school were dire...quite happy to point out he was struggling just not interested in helping him

He is nearly a 2c in reading and writing according to his teacher (she showed me his APP sheet) but obv this is behind his peers.

He has been at the school since Nov last year and has gone up one sub level in maths and reading and none in writing - albeit they showed me his written work and there really has been improvement....just not quite enough for 2c.

He is happy (which is great) but the school wont support me wrt SA...they feel he is is doing well.

The current "plan" is to get him assessed by the spld team next term, continue with extra provision and if he makes no progress in year 4 then get the EP in.

If he is dx as dyslexic, I am guessing they will atribute all his difficulties to that which worries me.

We are back to see the paed next month and I am going to make it VERY clear I am unhappy he has backtracked on the EP assessment

Rang SOS!SEN yesterday and they were very helpful...I just feel a bit as EVERYONE is telling me to apply for a statement and I am just not sure its the right move atm.

Of course, this time next year I may feel VERY different!

I suppose I have a "plan" of sorts i.e. we have completed AIT, his RRT will be finished by March next year, he will have been assessed by the spld team, we may do cranial osteopathy and behavioural optometry too so up to summer term we will be pretty busy Also, he will have been at the school for longer and I will have more time on my side IYSWIM?? i.e. if he still isnt progressing then I can say "Right, you have had nearly 2 years....I am applying for SA".

Just not sure what to do over summer....school are going to give me some ideas of work to do with him.

[Claw3]

You only need one trigger, not all of them need apply.

KS1 im guessing your ds is in year 2? A 'long period' for you, im guessing would be since he started school, has your ds's progress always been slow?

You have evidence, the SEN COP that your ds needs assessment.

2 is the expected average at the end of year 2, but that isnt the point really.

[Becaroooo]

I just think that they see any improvement - however slight - as evidence he doesnt need an EP.

[Becaroooo]

The 1st 2 triggers definately apply to ds1. Not the others.

Thing is, what is defined as "a long period"?

He is a 1a for reading and writing (KS1) although they say he is nearly a 2c.

Still not great though, is it?

[Claw3]

How are they monitoring his progress?

SEN COP 4:31 The triggers for referral for seeking help from outside agencies could be that, despite receiving an individualised programme and/or concentrated support, the child:

continues to make little or no progress in specific areas over a long period

continues working at an early years curriculum substantially below that expected of children of a similar age

has emotional or behavioural difficulties which substantially and regularly interfere with the child?s own learning or that of the group, despite having an individualised behaviour management programme

has sensory or physical needs, and requires additional equipment or regular visits for direct intervention or advice by practitioners from a specialist service
 has ongoing communication or interaction difficulties that impede the development ofsocial relationships and cause substantial barriers to learning.

Also you can contact the LA EP yourself, you know, i did.

[Becaroooo]

claw No, he is on school action and has an IEP. but only since April.

According to school they wont get "outside agencies" involved (i.e. EP) til he is on School Action + and he isnt on that because he is making progress...albeit very very slowly. Basically said he doesnt have severe enough difficulties to involve an EP.

Ds1 is a "ggod" boy. He is articulate and bright and has developed coping strategies to deal with school...he has to work 4x harder than other dc - the school have acknowledged this - and yet feel the very patchy 1-1 he has been getting is ok!!!

Have rung SOSSEN and got a phone number for a private EP....have left a message.

[Claw3]

Beca, forgot to ask is your ds on action plus?

[Claw3]

Beca it sounds like the school are unable to identify your ds's needs, all the more reason to apply for SA, as they need the help of the LA to identify his needs.

There is also a bit in the SEN COP, if i remember rightly about making adequate progress, if you ds's progress has been very slow, they need to look at why ie EP assessment.

Personally for starters, i think you should intially push for school EP to assess. There is plenty in the SEN COP you could quote at school.

[Becaroooo]

star Thanks. Am ringing SOSSEN in a minute and getting the name of a private EP.

claw Yes, thats very much the view I got at our meeting at school last week...whilst the meeting was positive and I learnt alot it was clear that, as far as the school was concerned, if ds1 is attaining academically then anything else just wasnt their problem.

"If he stops making progress then we will get an EP in". Yes. Fine. But then we wil be another 12-18 months down the line.

Talk about 1 step forward, 2 back!

[Claw3]

Thanks Star, i do feel that all the while ds is making academic progress i am banging my head against a wall. Thats all the Tribunal seemed interested in. If i hear 'he is learning, so his difficulties cant be getting in the way' one more time i will scream!

Unfortunately, due to ds's extremely passive nature, he does not protest or cause a fuss, he would jump off a bridge if asked, i am coming across as an over anxious mother.

Seems i will have to wait for ds to fall behind academically, start screaming or being violent before i am listened to. Directing his feelings inwards and self harming, seems to be thought of as a 'home problem' despite numerous letters from CAMHS stating its due to his social interactions and lack of understanding of them and how his anxieties are school based.

Everyones ignorance of self harming behaviour and what causes it, is amazing. There was a discussion at Tribunal about where he behaves this way ie school or home, as if that has any relevance. And 'oh CAMHS are dealing with anxieties'. Seems the only symptom of distress anyone understands is if it directed outwards.

[Starchart]

Becaroo.

That letter demonstrates an illegal blanket policy and is anyway not true.

It is not true that school have to do more, and it is not true that they can't get involved.

Please contact one of the charities for some advice on this.

[Becaroooo]

sigh. Its so hard isnt it?

Just had a letter from the psych service for the county basically saying
"school have to follow the SEN COP and to do so they need to do more interventions before we can get involved"

So, if ds1 stops making progress (which hopefully he wont) then it will be at least a year before he is seen by an EP.

But, I am not sure whether to pay if the school ignore the advice anyway???

So glad I did AIT and we are doing RRT....if not for them ds1 would be getting no help at all

[Claw3]

Beca, I suppose it depends on what kind of school you have, some schools might follow the recommendations of a private EP, some might not. In my experience all private reports, although very helpful to me, were ignored by school.

However, the report could be used as evidence to get a SA or if you are not up to it, use it to put pressue on the school to follow recommendations if they are not prepared to do so.

Once you start to get reports, it may well become clearer as to whether you feel an SA is necessary.

My private EP recommended that ds receive 4 hours of one to one support, this was ignored by Tribunal and school. Even the LA's EP recommended that ds would need 'a level of one to one support' this was also ignored.

I suppose what im trying to say, is decide what you think your ds needs and how you will use it.

[Starchart]

Claw, we had similar. The mountains of evidence and progress maps showed ds was deteriorating in preschool, yet an EP who had never seen ds, let along met him told the tribunal that he had been making 'good progress' and this appeared in the decision as reason to refuse our appeal.

I'm not trying to be doom and gloom on you, but let you know that there are people our here that BELIEVE you and know what it is like to be in your position and who right now feel very deeply for you.

[Claw3]

Agnes, thanks i will look into that, very helpful.

[Claw3]

Star - yes we have a home/school book, all the children in ds's class have one. Ironically at Tribunal SENCO sat there stating as far as she was aware, he does not hide his kit and enjoys PE. Next day i had a letter from school informing me that ds hadnt had his kit the whole term and could i please send it in!!

There was overwhelming evidence all on paper which backed up my claim that he strongly dislikes PE and why ie home/school book, ASD advisory teacher observing him hiding his kit, OT report highlight his difficulties with movement etc, several notes to his class teacher that he had scratched the skin off his chest because he was worried about PE, not wanting to come to school etc, etc.

Thats just one example, im gobsmacked that just words from SENCO saying 'he enjoys PE' was enough to convince the Tribunal that ds did not need the help that an OT recommended!!

My mistake was not taking OT, SALT etc with me as witnesses.

[Claw3]

Hi Appropriately, sorry to hear that. Ds used to do that, things on his hands and face, im sure its anxiety causing the senses to be more heightened than usual.

This school is much better than the last, but they do have the same problem as the last school of simply being unable to see or notice ds's difficulties, partly due to lack of communication between staff, job share teachers he has had this year and ds being extremely passive. He has just the one teacher, next term so hopefully she will notice a bit more.

[tryingtokeepintune]

Claw - so sorry to hear that you lost but Star is right, you should now start collecting data, writing to school to find out what is going on etc. Who knows, in one of the school's emails they might just drop their guard and say something useful to you.

Thanks for that link Agnes.

Becaroo - I found our pte EP report very useful as she did a detailed assessment of ds. Some of the results showed average scores and some very low scores and we were able to use them to argue for better provisions. She also recommended programmes based on his learning style and highlighted how he was very controlling but strongly motivated by rewards etc. The EP was recommended by SOS!SEN.

[Becaroooo]

claw There is no way on earth we would get SA and I am not sure I can go through all the stress of doing it if I know at the outset its not going to happen.

Am thinking a private EP report will have more weight than a failed SA bid???

[Agnesdipesto]

Grr just typed long reply and then got logged out.

Got some ideas about monitoring

Apparently some guidance here + some recent stuff from OFSTED yet to track down about assessment and progress data for SEN

Our LA telling schools must do inclusion passports which are much wider than just academic - eg P scales cover personal and emotional as well - and more detailed than IEPs

Also inclusion passport (which while a bit of a gimmick is something I reckon I can reformat to be more ABA like) has to say what intervention being used, progress made, outcome etc etc. LAs telling schools must be more outcomes based eg constantly assessing progress, looking at indep skills and employability. Say this message coming from OFSTED / DFE. Have changed the value added figures so based on progress for ALL learners and across ALL areas.

Now I saw NO evidence of this for my DS but have been at local SEN con where all this stuff was spouted so you can bet I will be making our school put it into practice

In fact sat in the audience it almost sounded ABA like

Can you get hold of your LA advice for schools on monitoring progress for SEN? Or if you have a local parent group ask the SEN monitoring team to come and talk to you so you can find out what LA are telling schools. I was quite that the schools were being asked to up their game on this. But would seem relevant to you. If you know what the recommendation for monitoring is you can try and enforce it

Also p scales - apparently there is a p scale for personal social and emotional - would this cover your DS? I am trying to get hold of a copy of our local p scales. If so, then you could insist your DS is assessed on p scales for PSE and this is the good bit the above guidance assumes 2 levels of progress for each p scale or Nat Curric level at each key stage including PSE

Schools are also supposed to be scoring a baseline at start of each key stage and then demonstrating 2 levels of progress - so again that might be relevant for your DS if he is not hitting the 2 levels of progress.

Sorry this is a bit vague I am just researching it myself.

[Starchart]

Claw, you don't feel it but you HAVE won something. You have won the school not taking their eye off the ball wrt your ds. You have won him attaention and it might be crap and way of the Mark but he will be getting a lot better quality of intervention had you not gone to tribunal.

The school know you can do it again. They will be mindful of that and careful to be reasonable.

I expect part of why you lost was because the provision was new and untested. Well, now it is being tested and you can evaluate it in time for next round. You have won a school that will pay you slightly more attention.

It feels like a waste. I should know. But just because you didn't get what you asked for doesn't mean you didn't get anything on paper.

Do you have a home- school book? This is a good place to produce and get evidence. You can have lots of discussions about missing school kit and fake illnesses on PE days.