CAMHS insist I must see a psychiatrist - please help

[plshelpnamechange]

Please can anyone help me as you can see I cant sleep and am feeling quite desperate. For the first time in my life I just have no idea what to do next and whom to trust.

I have had a meeting with my childs psychiatrist today, she is part of the CAMHS multi disciplinary team that were helping us. My husband and I have attended 6 months of meetings with CAMHS to try to establish a reason for my DS?s problems. I was asked to come alone today and discovered that this psychiatrist insists that I see a psychiatrist myself. She stated that I am the only person who sees anything different with my 6 year old DS, apparently everyone else states he is normal even school, despite their reporting issues to me and my DS having endured an undiagnosed medical condition for at least 2 years. My husband has attended every meeting and we are in total agreement and others actually suggested the differences years before we would ever consider it. I accept that I have been too forceful in seeking help for my DS but I just want all their happiness and health and will do anything in my power to provide it. I admit that I have found the NHS slow and frustrating and at times incompetent and very different to my professional life pre children and in hindsight I may not have hidden these feelings.

The multi disciplinary team state that they find my child charming and delightful (which is true with adults, I find it the same, his interest in everything is infectious). I think the psychiatrist is suggesting munchausens, this was discussed and certainly not denied in the meeting today. I have read up about this tonight and it is absolutely frightening as it is clearly stated as child abuse. The psychiatrist stated that every professional involved with us (not just those in the CAMHS team) reports that I have failed to bond with any of my children and do not connect with them, this appears to include my health visitor. I thought I had the most wonderful experience of motherhood, absolutely loving it and having 2 other children with no issues.

I actually thought I was a natural mother, it seemed to come so easily and I was so relaxed that I initially welcomed home visits from CAMHS thinking they would be helpful and supportive and non judgemental. I never dreamt the outcome would include possible neglect and a suggestion that I do not feed my eldest. I was told that I had no idea how to comfort my youngest when seen to cry on the CAMHS home visit whom I thought/still think is the happiest toddler ever with an absolute love of life and constant interaction. I was told that I had/still have PND. Having supported several friends through PND I cant believe anyone would ever think I had/have it as my hormones certainly had the reverse effect. I had always appreciated how lucky I was and just thought this was genetic as my mother was the same and in part due to successful sole breastfeeding and use of sling etc.

CAMHS plan to have a professionals meeting to discuss all this and will then feedback to us. Unfortunately I have made several complaints about misdiagnosis and mistakes in particular where a major medical condition took 2 years to be diagnosed in my child and if NICE protocol had been followed it should have been found on the very first appointment. This could potentially have saved my child 2 years of very serious distress. Aside from the school all the medical personnel invited to the meeting are the ones I have made complaints about! The paediatrician whom we have seen regularly for 4 years and I think I may still trust is not invited, nor is my GP. Aside from anything else I obviously dont want the school to be told these things about me as my younger two have still to start there and my eldest has years more there. I had asked CAMHS to speak to some people outside the medical professions ie playgroups, clubs, friends, family just anyone who sees me regularly with my children but they have refused. Does anyone know if it is standard procedure that parents cannot attend the professionals meeting and if so can we send a representative and whom would you recommend?

My husband is also in absolute shock at this news and just cannot believe they can think I am the problem and that he had trusted them. Luckily he is still totally supportive to me and I have always believed and still believe that he thinks I am doing a great job and marvels at my patience. I am not a saint and I was sure there were parenting techniques we could improve and I thought that I welcomed any recommendations CAMHS had to offer, until now! I expected the advice to focus on my eldest as the second responds brilliantly to all praise and has great behaviour as is naturally compliant and the youngest is just a very happy one year old.

Unfortunately my mother knew Sally Clark and was severely affected by her case and other situations and she has absolutely no trust in the system here and is telling me to emigrate which is certainly not helping me to sleep! Surely a whole team cannot get it so wrong? How can I survive the next month until the meeting?

Has any one experienced any accusations, maybe munchausens or an instruction for psychiatric help or lack of bonding when they have just been seeking help for their child? Does anyone have any advice or know how the CAMHS system works in this respect? How can you ever cope with this? My hands are still shaking after 12 hours. Please help me.***

Many thanks.

Apologies for the length of post and any errors as I am very emotional. Should I post this somewhere else as we have no special needs diagnosis but where as I need support?

[Flanks]

You are entitled to feel concerned and off balance after such an un-expected situation.

However, one could say there is nothing to lose by seeing someone yourself! Not because something is wrong, or because the fool CAMHS person has said so, but because it gives you an opportunity to get everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) off your chest in an environment that is completely safe and free of any judgement.

I have done this in the past with no medical recommendation to do so, and it has been an enormous stress relief to have the moment where I can say anything with no fear of social judgement or offending those dearest to me. Afterwards I feel liberated, not least because as the words come out of my mouth I can hear them differently and it is a real opportunity for reflection.

In this case it may provide you a safe place to position yourself differently. The sad situation here is that you have been made to feel attacked, which is entirely clouding other issues which you would (quite rightly) prefer to be concerned with, namely the well being of your child.

If you did this, along side pursuing the complaint, you will have the confidence and self-knowledge to pursue it diligently and with your focus complete.


On a related note, it is not unusual for professionals to see a child differently because they have changed the environment in which the child is communication with them. So do not be over-concerned, the advice in this thread is spot on about how to pursue this sensibly and without over-reacting. If you care for yourself you automatically care for your child and everyone around you.

Good luck!

[We3KingyOfOblomovAre]

Thank you little fish. Have now asked for it to be deleted.

[Littlefish]

Oblomov and Luxy - this thread was started in 2011.

[TelephoneIgnoringMachine]

ZOMBIE THREAD

[ouryve]

And that information is relevant 4.5 years later because...?

[TotalChaos]

re:seeing a psych - have had 2 psych referrals in past for myself, have never had it cause any problems with jobs etc, as not been under psych care for some years I have never had to mention it for job apps etc.


re:impaction - been through that with DS (mostly but not absolutely fully resolved), it was plain sailing getting it diagnosed (took me a while to tumble it wasn't lactose intolerance or stomach bugs), I described the problems and GP felt DS's stomach (yes I know not 100% reliable method) but in our case it worked. I don't want to add fuel to the fire, given your fights with the paed re diagnosis, but thought I should mention that GP had bloods done to rule out low iron or thyroid problems as a cause for constipation. So possibly once the low iron is treated that may help???

I think the professionals are being a bit unfair if they are overlooking how the soiling causes stress and can affect family life in general tbh. Btw DS also rarely has accidents at school unless he is unwell.

[madwomanintheattic]

just wanted to say ds1 still soils and wets at 9. he's had lots of tests inc x-rays (where faecal impaction was apparently detected) and been on lots of meds. he's not on anything now as nothing was working so we stopped treatment. faecal impaction can take six months to clear - we carried out the treatment and toileting routine plan for six mos with no change, and the doc we went back to said x-ray isn't a reliable tool, it may not have been an impaction, just a normal stool. not possible to tell with x-ray. (jury is still out on other dx - inc asd's/ odd/ adhd etc). am currently looking into biomed stuff, as ds is a prime candidate having been on huge amounts of anti-bs etc at weeks old.

fwiw, it's not unusual at all for soiling etc to take an extremely long time to resolve, even when impaction has been dx. but there are a lot of gps who aren't familiar with the symptoms. (i actually went to the gp and asked if it was likely to be impaction, and she was surpised i had heard of it.) neric haven't given me any useful either, i'm afraid.

anyways, would agree with others tbh. the more compliant you are, the better your chances of being left alone.

with a lot of professionals you need to use the maxim 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'. pandering to their obvious professionalism and leading them by the nose towards possible treatment options. dd2 has cerebral palsy and we have been very lucky to have got along extremely well (and received an excellent therapy package, and later full statement) with all professionals, largely by recognising that a great deal of ego stroking greases the wheels. it has been very hard work, particularly when it is obvious that the consultant paediatrician knows a lot less about cp than you do, but in the interests of getting along, you have to learn to nod and smile.

it shouldn't matter, but it does.

when people say compliance, we don't mean 'do everything you are told', we mean enter into a debate with the professional pandering to their extreme knowledge, about 'why that is the best option, and is there anything else that might help? because we are all working towards helping x?'

if, however, you are still convinced that your child an undx condition, i would be concentrating my efforts of getting that investigated via a private route. note i say 'investigated' not dx. that's not your job. but if you have enough money to be chasing private psych for you, the best retort to a munschausens by proxy dx for you, would be a real dx for your child.

so tbh, get a psych assessment for you if you feel like it, but if you are absolutely certain that your child has an undx condition of whatever sort, get a private professional to assess and dx if appropriate. job done. i know some private dx can be questioned, but it's got to be a help.

but yes, compliance. you have to know your place and your role as a parent, in an erving goffman sort of way. you can use it and subvert it to your advantage, but you have to be seen to be playing along with the game.

[cory]

I really think you need to start letting things go, otherwise the stress may start impacting on your ds.

I would not worry too much about the psychiatrist, go and see them, explain that you were stressed at the time but that you are fine now (and don't keep going on about the misdiagnosis, show them that you are actually able to move on).

Unlikely to come up in any other way from your medical records, but if it does just explain that you were stressed over your son's medical problems but that this has all been resolved- shouldn't cause any difficulties. I've had counselling to do with dcs' misdiagnoses and I've never had any problems from that; in fact, I found it quite helpful.

And please don't beat yourself up about your ds- yes, it may have been distressing for him, but no permanent harm has been done, and it is not unusual for it to take some time to diagnose faecal impaction.

[mariamagdalena]

I don't think seeing a psychiatrist looks any worse on your records than seeing any other specialist. And it's probably the quickest way to settle all this down. Plus, if later on you need to explore the ?asd issue again, having a letter you can use as a certificate of sanity might be helpful.

[lisad123isasnuttyasaboxoffrogs]

Im so sorry your going though this. We had pooh problems with dd1 for 6 years including impaction and overflow. The pead we saw was very blaise It about all, and just sent us away with meds.
It did clear in the end but with advice to use yahcult (sp?) which came from a friend. Turns out DD1 has autism and this is a common problem.

Now as for CAMHS, I would say they are proberly looking at the tests you asked for. Did you ask pead to do loads of tests? They hate being told what to do, hate paying for tests and hate to be wrong. I think you'll have to bite the bullet and go with what they say for now, but do it quietly and with little fuss. You can refuse treatment if you so wish.
Have the ask ss to become involved? At the moment it isnt too bad, but try and get a proffessional that is on your side in on the proffessionals meeting if you can. Ride ti out and hope they bugger off asap.

[plshelpnamechange]

Thank you all for lots more great advice. Thanks for the tip to be compliant, if only I could.... but then if i were we would not have a diagnosis.

I have found out that it was the paediatrician who failed to diagnose a reason for my sons medical condition who had initially highlighted the concern with my mental health and hence referred us to CAMHS. We were throwing away up to 6 pairs of pants a day due to my son?s soiling and he was also having many many wetting accidents. He was being teased at school and it was affecting his behaviour and friendships so I was pushing extremely hard for a diagnosis. Unfortunately I have had several dreadful medical misdiagnosis in the past for myself so I accept that I may well have appeared cross and untrusting from the outset but that was certainly only with the medical professions and not with my son.

We had absolutely no idea that there were any concerns with me and thought we were being referred to CAMHS to rule out conditions such as Aspergers as we were told that all the medical tests had been conducted and hence were seeking behavioural reasons. ERIC, the experts in incontinence, had advised me that toileting issues and smearing were often found in autistic children. Actually my son was only smearing because the only way he can tell if any poo has come out is to put his hand down because it has been going on for at least 2 years so he has no feeling. Then off course it goes everywhere and he has to try to wipe it off and it goes on walls and clothes etc.

I am now left wondering if the reason that the paed missed the fact that he had such a common condition as faecal impaction and didnt realize that all the soiling was just overflow (diahorrea, flaky bits and ribbons so all 3 classic types) was because she had decided that I was either imagining or causing the problem and hence did not follow the NICE procedure. Whilst my son has wetting accidents at school most days, they are far less frequent than at home (a maximum of 3 in one day at school) and school have only actually noticed the soiling on a few occasions when it has been excessive although he does come out of school slightly soiled most days but this is not noticed. I understand that this paed who has the initial concerns about my mental state is to be at the professionals meeting and obviously worry if her failure to diagnose might cause a conflict of interest.

I got a hint from our CAMHS home visitor that CAMHS did not think my son had Aspergers and just had a concern that it would be due to the parents, I actually thought my husband was to be blamed! I then spent hours and hours researching all the possible medical conditions and possible tests. I then wrote to another paed asking for a second opinion, listing possible conditions and tests and asking for confirmation that all the appropriate tests including an x-ray had been done. An x-ray was then carried out and the faecal impaction was found less than a week after my letter was sent!

My son has never had a ?normal? poo. He had toddler diahorrea from birth, initially blamed on breastfeeding then blamed on too healthy a diet and he always pooed about 8 times a day. We were just told he would grow out of it but obviously it all became a problem once out of nappies. Apparently I was in Great Ormond Street as a toddler with the same problem for monitoring but eventually just grew out of it.

My son has also been diagnosed with low iron levels despite a dietician having reported that he eats enough iron. Does anyone know if a faecal impaction can affect iron absorption or if there could be any other reason for this other than my not feeding him??? The blood test for coeliac was negative although at one point I believe he did have a slightly low IGA result so I am not personally certain if it is correct that this can be totally ruled out. Unfortunately I have no scientific background and no interest in medicine which makes all the research difficult.

I am still being told I need psychiatric help, even before the professionals meeting. This is despite the fact that all my stress would have gone now that we have a treatable medical condition if it were not for CAMHS still insisting I need help. We were so delighted to find a medical reason and even though all the soiling is now worse due to the medication I am unstressed by this because I know it is clearing the impaction and he will get better and we have been able to explain the reason to him to reassure him that it is not his fault.

I had asked CAMHS to give us a few months for my sons medication to work and to assess if all our stress had gone but CAMHS state they ?have to report what they have observed?. In my opinion this is a mother untrusting of the NHS, frustrated by yet another doctor unable to make a diagnosis and very upset that her sons was desperately unhappy about the accidents and how this impacted on his whole life. It was not someone actually wanting her son to have Aspergers and to want him to have other problems that no one else could see because she resented him for causing her own medical conditions (never was a child more wanted and loved).

He must have been so distressed to have never known when he needed to go to the toilet, it breaks my heart and I have to live with the guilt of not going privately when I had the money and didnt trust the NHS. When I think back I knew the paed was not taking me seriously and thought I was exaggerating. I will never forgive myself or use the NHS again for anything like this.

If anyone has a child still soiling for no reason who has not been x-rayed please please insist on an xray even if like my son they dont ever strain to pass a stool.

All help welcomed especially from anyone with further medical knowledge of the above or who understands this process and can help me to understand why I am seen as mentally ill when I have never even been depressed just very stressed at the situation as I would expect would most mothers. Am I right to be concerned about having to see a psychiatrist (at the very least) on my medical records?
All advice welcome about how I should proceed now I have given more detail of the conditions.

(Apologies for the length, this is the first time in my life I have not been able to sleep)

[cory]

I had a somewhat similar problem, though not as bad as you. Dd's physical disability was diagnosed as psychosomatic at first and the suggestion was made that it was due to parenting problems: she was referred to CAHMS.

What I found worked well was being as compliant as I possibly could, attending all meetings/treatments etc, making sure I took dh with me and that he spoke as much as me, and working very hard to get at least some of the medical professionals on my side.

[growlybear]

We used an independant sw i kind of similar situation to you and they turned the whole thing around.

[Bonkerz]

Cahms did this to me. After assessing ds they wrote a report detailing that they felt ds jad no issues not even ADHD and felt that I would benefit from further assessment. They suggested it was my parenting skills and that I was projecting onto my son and that I should have a mim assessment which apparently is about how you bond with your child etc.

You can fight this. I went to the lead clinician at cahms in my area and placed a formal complaint which was heard and I insisted on the ados test an d adir test which they eventually agreed to and within 7 months we had a full diagnosis of autism nd odd.

Do not listen to them. You are doing what you think is right. You are the mum. You know your child. Do not let them beat you down.

[timsays]

There are agencies like ISWA or Avocet. A friend has used ISWA for adoption purposes and said they were very helpful.

[bochead]

How do you get an independent social worker? I didn't know there was such a thing?

[timsays]

I also wonder if it would help to ask for an assessment by social services, or an independent social worker? When I asked for an assessment from ss (because I wanted respite help for my child with SN), they asked for information from all the professionals involved and wrote up quite a detailed report - saying that we were coping well and didn't need help . IME SS are keen to minimise any needs or problems as they'd have to fund support services otherwise.

OTOH, I've heard some quite intrusive stories about SS (as bad as what you're going through now) so you might be wary of any involvement from them. So an independent social worker might be more on your side, yet still be able to do a full, family based assessment. It's just that I think it would be more comprehensive than just a psych assessment, which would just be based on you rather than the family dynamic.

[mariamagdalena]

NHS referrals are sometimes a bit slow, but imho it wouldn't hurt to get one started even if you do end up seeing a private psychiatrist as well / instead. A lot of private psychiatrists are NHS ones earning some extra money in their spare time, so you might even be able to get the same person! The other option might be a locally respected psychologist who does a lot of family therapy, as their opinion that your head is ok would carry some weight.

[Frustrated2003]

If its a professionals only meeting I dont beleive you will be able to send a representative, I would check if Children Services are going to be there as it might be a strategy meeting if thats the case and they may decide to take to child protection case conference if they are looking at you for a mental health condition and are indicating you are the root cause of issues for your son.

I work in the system and its pants hwo they treat parents, really worries me as some cant defend themselves, and how these people sleep at night I never know.

[Frustrated2003]

Hi

I know a good clinical psychiatrist she has just done a fantastic report on my son and highlighted how education, social care and NHS have failed to support my son and have increased his difficulties.

Let me know and will PM you her details