Why not feed under 1's during the night?

[mears]

This is a thread for my interest really.

There are lots of threads about trying to get babies to sleep through without feeds during the night. I think mums are ending up with even less sleep that if they just fed their baby, be it breast or bottle. Is it the fear that if it is not cracked by 6 months they will never sleep through?

My sister has 4 girls who didn't sleep though till at least a year and her philosophy was to do whatever would get herself back into bed and sleep the quickest. She realised with her second baby that she spent too much time being annoyed about being up which was making her even more tired. She remembered the hassle with the first so she decided just to feed at night and sort out the sleeping when they were older. When they were over a year she sorted it out with controlled crying (didn't take long)

I took that attitude myself. When babies woke I took them into bed and fed them. That meant I could sleep at the same time. They were all breastfed. First 2 babies slept through the night by 4 months. Number 3 did not sleep through till 8 months and he was the fattest baby out the lot. With 2 other toddlers to look after there was no way I was going to lose out on sleep at night by avoiding just feeding. Number 4 was B/F exclusively till 6 months and she had periods of being up during the night then sleeping through again about the 6-7 month mark.

I had 15 months between babies number 2 and 3 and was also working 2 night a week. DH got up and gave EBM when I wasn't at home, so I wanted to make sure I got as much sleep as possible.

The point I am trying to get across is that perhaps mums are getting themselves stressed out where they could just feed and get back to sleep.

Once baby is a year old it is possibly easier to stop night feeds with controlled crying like my sister did. I found that I didn't need to do that because the latest mine slept through was 8 months. I have never had a problem with children sleeping in my bed. Once they started to sleep through that was it.

Any thought?

[aloha]

Found this:

Media Statement
Strict embargo:
00.01, 16 January 2004

New research leads to new charity advice
on reducing the risk of infant death

The Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID) has issued new advice to parents following the publication today of a new study which identified a small but statistically significant risk of death to babies under 8 weeks of age who bedshare with their parents.(1)   

The international study,  led by Professor Robert Carpenter of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and part-funded by FSID, is one of the largest-ever studies of sudden infant death.  It confirms previous findings that bedsharing greatly increases the risk of infant death when the parent is a smoker, has drunk alcohol or taken drugs.  

But today?s findings also identified an increased bedsharing risk even when the parents are non-smokers, if the baby is very young.(2)  

Joyce Epstein , FSID Director, said  

?The safest place for a baby to sleep is in a separate cot in the parents? bedroom. Today, FSID will start alerting parents to the fact that research has found a link between cot death and bedsharing with babies under 8 weeks of age.  

?It?s very important that research of this type  continues ? large-scale monitoring of babies who live and babies who die ?  to be able to identify new ideas for safe infant care. Unfortunately no such national monitoring is now taking place in the UK , and so we have little way of generating and testing ideas for new baby care advice.  Much more research is needed into how to reduce sudden infant death, which still claims seven babies? lives each week in the UK ?.  

Today?s study also confirms a range of other known risks, including  the risk of letting the baby?s head get covered by the bedding or using a duvet for babies.  FSID?s advice for parents to prevent the baby?s head accidentally getting covered is to sleep the baby ?feet to foot? - with the feet at the bottom of the cot, blankets tucked in firmly and no higher than the shoulders, to prevent the baby from wriggling under.  The authors of today?s research recommend sleeping bags to avoid head covering;  FSID agrees that if sleeping bags are used they should be lightweight and well-fitting but  FSID points out there is no UK research on whether babies who use sleeping bags are less likely to suffer cot death.  



(1)  R G Carpenter, L M Irgens, P Blair, P D England, P Fleming, J Huber, G Jorch, P Schreuder, ?Sudden unexplained infant death in 20 regions in Europe:  case control study?, The Lancet, Vol. 363, 16 Jan 04

(2)  If the parent is not a smoker, the risk of sudden infant death while bedsharing doubles for babies under 8 weeks of age (ie increases by 2-fold).  Just to put that degree of risk in context, the risk of death for babies of any age bedsharing with smoking mothers increases by 11-fold


Media contacts:
Joyce Epstein , Director, 0870 787 0885; out of hours 07904 198 552
Colin Brook , Communication Assistant, 0870 787 0885
Interviews with FSID?s medical advisors may be arranged on request  

[aloha]

Very pleased for you Denisa! It's wonderful isn't it? BTW it's fine for your baby to be in her own room now, even according to SIDs guidelines, I believe. The stuff against co-sleeping is below 8weeks only - but I think as long as not smothered or too hot under duvet, the risk is so small it woudn't stop me doing it if I got some sleep!

[Denisa]

Oh buy the way, just to add for someone new, 1-1.5h, rocking, dummy and co-sleeping. We have slept in the same bed with my dh for the first time after 8mths and it felt strange (especially the snoring, haha) but she just seems to be sleeping so well in her cot next door. Just wonder if it is safe at 8mths, I do keep both doors open and light on the landing.

[Denisa]

Aloha, I really hope the second one will be easier, you deserve it. I owe you as my dd now 8 months sleeps throught night just after 3 days of cc, 1st night 7h in one go But quite agree with both you and bakedpotatohoho, it is not that easy if they don't want just a feed or when you cannot fall asleep afterwards yourself. My dd would fall asleep after feed or b..y dummy later on at times (ditched it thanks to U), but as she did wake up every 1-1.5 by the time I managed to fall asleep she would be up, as you know.People who did not experience it cannot even imagine. My mother in law thinks I am cruel with cc but she never had to wake up earlier than 3-4h (at worst)! And I too did not enjoy motherhood as much until this week. Despite dd being very much wanted baby (after missed miscarr. 2 months before her), my dh and I were going through hell due to sleep deprivation and were on each other's throats. Lack of sleep can have bad consequences. Waking up once or twice per night and having a feed is fine, but more than that is not acceptable in my eyes when nearing the 1yr. Anyways, you will be rewarded for your first one and your second will be a little sleeping beauty!And I hope to hear that happy sound here in Streatham, lol.

[Bozza]

Don't mean to speak for other chicpea (because I never used a dummy) but I know Aloha is a strong advocate of dummies.

[Bozza]

Piffle that was part of the eventual key with DS but I was racked with guilt every time I laid him on his back.

Q for Mears. When DS was a baby co-sleeping was considered acceptable but before DD was born I was given a briefing by the HV about how this was no longer the case because of an increased risk of SIDS and I must on no account have her in bed with us. Did occasionally when she was small and still do when she is poorly (chicken pox, tummy bug etc). But this goes against what you are advocating.

[ChicPea]

Oh I am shocked to read some posts saying how long it takes to settle a baby or how how often he/she wakes during the night.
I know everyone HATES dummies but they worked for both children. They both slept through the night at 8 weeks on an 8-8 routine. I put them to bed with a dummy at night and took it out as soon as they fell asleep. If they cried at 5/6am at 6wks old, they would get a dummy which woudl send them back to sleep and then they would be woken up at 8am for the first bottle. They were bf (expressed) until 3wks when I gave them formula. As I said, I know everyone hates dummies, but I have been sleeping through early on and feeling sane and refreshed and above all normal with lots of patience for those trying moments. Of course, they do occasionally wake up when ill, teething, etc, but I don't object to that.
The above is not meant to offend anyone or to sound smug - only to sing the praises of dummies!!! Worked for me!!

[Bozza]

Well, if it helps at all Aloha, that has been my experience. DS (now 3.11) was a fairly awful sleeper and DD (now 8 months) has been much better. At least initially.

Think the feeding laying down is a valid point because with DS I did this and he slept and because I was so desperately tired I slept. If he woke up after the breastfeed that was it - hours of pacing the floor or an argument over who would take him out in the car. DH really needs is sleep and got in a state - grinding teeth causing mouth ulcers etc. also worrying because he drives 100s of miles a week. And I was very tired and still feeding several times a night when I went back to work after 15 weeks. Then we decided that DS needed to learn to go to sleep himself which took us hours or patting his bottom to get him to drop off at night. By about 6 months he was sleeping through from about 7.45 pm to about 5 am but was then up for the day. So obviously this was much easier than you had it Aloha but still quite tough.

When DD was born she started into a bedtime routine straight away - was put in the bath with DS from 2 weeks old and in bed for 7.30 pm. At times it would sometimes take a couple of hours and 2 or 3 breastfeeds for her to settle but then she would wake up twice in the night, feed and go straight back in her cot. This dropped to once a night but then worked its way back up to 3/4 times. She wouldn't latch on laid down (unfortunately) but the easier settling meant it was easier than DS. But working 3 days a week, with very little support other than DH, and two children (one no longer napping and one rather sporadic although she is improving) meant I was getting pretty tired. Also knew (given she is on 3 big meals a day plus 2 bottles plus bedtime and morning breast feed) that it was unnecessary. So we've done cc but picking up and cuddling for 5 mins and then putting down. And its gone like this:
Night 1 - wake 12, 1 hr 40 mins to settle, wake 5am breast feed, sleep unitl 6.50 am
Night 2 - wake 1.30 am, 20 mins to settle, sleep until 7 am
Night 3 - wake 1.30 am, 10 mins to settle, wake 4.30 am breast feed, sleep until 6.45 am
Night 4 - wake 4 am breastfeed, wake 7.10 am
Night 5 - wake 6.15 am breastfeed, wake 7.45 am
Night 6 - wake 3 am (grumbled but didn't get round to going to her because went out and was v. tired and she's shut up by the time I'd gone to the loo) wake 6.30 am, breastfeed, woke 8.15 am

Night 6 was last night so its going really well. But I think the late wakings (ie after 7 am) are causing trouble in the day because she's only having one decent nap and getting very tired by about 5 pm - still its weekdays again tomorrow.

If DD would feed laying down I would be much happier to continue.

Sorry for waffle.

Also wanted to say that when I hear about babies sleeping through at 6 weeks my feelings are (and this is entirely genuine) of very strong envy. How much more enjoyment you must get out of your gorgeous babies if you are well rested.

[aloha]

Looking forward to the amnesia in seven years

[Piffle]

part of it may be that I was so worried about what DS was like that I was quite firm with dd early on, at 3 wks I was leaving her to settle ust before I knew she "should" sleep
If she moaned I would comfort and resettle straight away and stay near.
For us it turned out that being on her stomach was our pathway to sleep glory, with her right beside us in her bedside cot...
She has never ever been found asleep on her back... Got flamed by HV though, but never ever wanted to go thru non sleep hell again..
See how long it took me to remember how bad DS was?
You do forget after a decade

[aloha]

Ooh, send some contented sleeping baby girl vibes my way, will you?
Am pinning all hopes on the fact that this is a dd (so I have been told by three different scanners) and so, of course, will be completely different to darling ds in sleeping habits.

[Piffle]

aloha you're right, if I go back to my 1st Ds now 10, he was a nightmare, I was nearly homicidal with lack of sleep and desperation, he slept 20 mins out of every hour and I was told it was normal
Thank god I asked for help, In NZ where I lived they have drop in day centres called Karitane houses. They helped me get him onto 3 hrly feeding. I pulled him into bed with me at night fed while asleep and he was fine...
He was still bf thru the night at 15 mths when I decided no way no way
Tough love and cc prevailed and he has been an angel since.
In earlier post was selfishly basking in my joyous experience of dd now 2 of a contented sleeping bf baby who rejoices in nap times and bed times...
Humblest apologies for sounding so smug, I should have known better

[aloha]

Schmauskin, only just seen your post. Deep, deep sympathy. It's so awful, isn't it? My absolute salvation was that my dh suffered along with me (we are both psychologically scarred!) and we slept in shifts until we could bear it no more. Also, we took turns with the early morning waking so we knew that if we got up at 4am, the next day we could sleep until 6am. Also if we were up at 4am until 6am, we could then go back and sleep until 7.30am. I don't think I could have survived unless we'd done this. CC didn't work at 6months, ds just became absolutely inconsolable and it was awful, but we did work on eliminating night feeds by stretching them out slowly so went from 12 -4am without a feed, then 11 - 4am then 11 to 5am etc (very rough timings as have forgotten gory details) and then, when I was pretty sure he wasn't hungry until morning, we did cc at 8months, when it was really incredibly easy and he just whinged for about 20mins at most, and it turned around very quickly and he is now a wonderful sleeper, and the happiest boy in the world (three years and four months and never a tantrum at all - touch wood). So I got my payback in the end. Though I am hoping for a different experience with new baby born in Feb, and yes, I love hearing about second children who SLEEP!! And you see, it took us 2 1/2 years to face the thought of another baby, but we did it!

[moongirl]

i think this is a really important thread. Some babes don't sleep whatever you do--but i agree that you get SO much pressure as a new mum not to be feeding at night by a certain time. With DS1 i remember letting him cry and cry at 9 weeks old trying to push his night feed forward 1 or 2 hours because i was convinced by all the literature and mummies groups that he shouldn't be feeding 4 times a night. I was obviously thoroughly awake by then, he was (in retrospect) v hungry and miserable and i got more and more depressed. I tried to "make" him do all sorts of things he was "supposed" to be doing. You are so vunerable as a new mum, you don't believe in yourself or your instinct, you believe all the experts instead. DD2 has been a joy. I am lucky in that she is an easy baby and has never woken 5 times a night for a feed like her brother, but still i started off "trying" to get her into a pattern and one night while trying to get her to suck a dummy rather than feed it all became clearer: i fed her. she slept. i slept. i threw out all the books and began to trust myself ( a little anyway)

[OLittleYurtofBethlehem]

Hi Mears - Im one of the inspirations for this htread arent I?

things is now dd has formula at bedtime and before lunchtime sleep - she is a much happier baby - with a much happier mummy

She wakes at 10pm ish when we transfer her from cot into lounge - loooooooong story - It means we can sleep and talk etc in our bedroom! She sleeps so much better now

I feed her at breakfast and at 10ish which is fine but not ideal - I certainly didnt find feeding her at 3am an easier option than not feeding her.

HTH

[egypt]

yes you're right tracy but its all relative. having not had a good nights sleep in 7 months i feel the need though.

me too scamps, always caving in. praps thats the problem. but tonight i thought, 'i may as well do cc as when i feed her she's waking every hour anyway. either way i get little sleep and at least cc might be closer to the light at the end of the tunnel...'

we'll see though!

sorry mears, we are kind of hijacking your thread. are you around?

[scampadoodle]

TBH, for all my strong resolution now, come 3am when i'm desperate to get back to bed I know i'll cave in & feed him...

[TracyK]

I would feed them when they want - maybe water down the milk a little?? Just think in 10 years time - you'll look back on all this stress and laugh.
Babies are so resilient that it doesn't matter a hoot (in the long term) how often they eat/don't eat, sleep/don't sleep etc. It's taken me 8 months of stressing myslef out to come to this conclusion. I'm sure stressing myself out just added to my feeling of tiredness - once I accepted it as part of bringing up a little one - I felt much better.
I saw a boy today - maybe 8 or 9 yo - still having to be hand fed with a bib on - I'm not sure what was wrong with him - but it sure opened my eyes to my 'problems' not really being a big deal.

[egypt]

might me a good idea scamp, i am wondering the same myself. she wouldnt take a bottle at all this eve and last feed was 230pm. she will guzzle as usualy tonight. we can;t literally starve them though so maybe worth a try if you can bear it. might only take 1 night...she says

[scampadoodle]

Reading Aloha's posts makes me realise i haven't got much of a problem (if it's any comfort, Aloha, my 7m DS2 is so different in personality to DS1, & his babyhood is a completely different experience, so you never know).

Anyway, DS2 (almost 7m) wakes 1-3 times a night to be fed, plus other times when I can just stave him off with a dummy. After feeding, he generally goes back to sleep at once, as do i, but even so nearly 7 months of 3 hrs sleep a night are giving me viruses, mouth ulcers & just sheer exhaustion! He is bottle-fed & sleeps (happily) in his own cot. I know what you all mean about the path of least resistance ie feed 'em & get back to bed, but of late he's shown no interest in his daytime milk & we really have to force 4-5oz down at bedtime. During the night, however, he just wolfs it down. Frustrating, no? He's been on solids for nearly 3 months & loves them - has 3 good meals a day. We tried half-heartedly to sleep-train him last week but well, the little bugger was hungry so I fed him in the end... I'm wondering whether to grit my teeth & not feed him for a couple of nights so that he's hungry for milk during the day again. What do you all think?

[Allyco]

I've had four dds now and they have all come into the bed with us.The eldest (now 18!) I tried leaving to cry, ignoring, settling repeatedly and so on for literally months and eventually out of sheer desperation she ended up in our bed and slept. The second and third were much the same although by then I was of the opinion that whatever it took to get them to sleep, I would do. Now that the fourth is here she has been in our bed since she came home from hospital and I haven't even thought about trying to get her into the cot yet. It is very easy to suggest cc or other methods especially if you're a psychologist or something and you haven't actually been there. I agree with you Mears - you have to do whatever works. There is no point stressing about stuff, just do what you can. Incidentallly when I had my first three the health professionals were much less sympathetic to me having them in my bed but this time round the health visitor hasn't said much against it (unless she is too scared to because I am defensive!). For anyone who is suffering I understand totally because I've done it too and if anyone wants someone to whinge at I'm your woman lol

[egypt]

me again...she is waking lots now. 1.5-2 hours. its a nightmare. i am bf when she does and she goes straight back, but i cant keep this up. have taken into bed too, but i seriously find it difficult to sleep with her tbh. any ideas mears? do u think that cc is the way now.....for my sanity ? or is 7 months too early?

[dinny]

Mears, I totally agree with what you say. I put ds (3.5 months) to bed in his cot t abotu 7pm then when he wakes between 10-11.30ish for a feed I go to bed and bring him in with me fr the night. He then feeds whenever he wants - if I am awake enough I roll us over to the other side if needed but don't worry too much about swapping sids. He definitely just has small frequent snacks during the night - not sure how many as am lucky that I go back to sleep straight away. I LOVE having him with me - I drift off with his little tummy pressed against mine, feeling every breath....it's bliss. DD (to my eternal sadness) was bottlefed and although she co-slept with us it was obviously a different experience. So I am enjoying this so much and will probably be desolate when he decides to sleep through (not to mention my boobs - they'll probably explode the night he sleeps through!)

[SantasLittleEgypt]

she's just 7 months btw

[SantasLittleEgypt]

oooo a subject very close to my own heart at the mo, mears!

when dd was 5.5 months we were at the stage of hourly wakings and only way to get her back to sleep was to bf. i didnt mind, but it was so frequent i became concerned that she was waking and feeding through habit/associating bf with getting to sleep etc. my hv confirmed this. she told me to try cc. i did. the first night i offered water at midnight when she woke then bf at 4. the second she slept through 7-7!! amazed. but...then she got a cold and i just couldnt do cc. (we'd gone to my mums for a week too, so she was out of sorts anyway). since then i've really not done it properly. some nights i have offered a bottle - water or milk. sometimes it send her back to sleep sometimes not and i end up bf. this week i have just gone back to bf. what i am concerned about though is that she's going to become dependent on it again and it'll get to the very frequent stage. at the moment she feeds 2-3 times a night. only once in the small hours. i know she doesnt necessarily need it as she's proven that. but maybe she does?! what do u think?