Urgently need to contact a moderator

[Palace13]

I have serious concerns for another member's safety.
Need to speak privately to someone about this.
I believe the person requires an urgent police welfare check.

[donaldducksgranonceremoved]

I honestly don't know - I didn't actually see the thread before it was deleted but mentally unwell people often behave in ways that don't make sense necessarily if you're of sound mind

Regardless of the posters actions or perceived intent I think the policy of deleting swiftly and redirecting people to seek support on channels who are trained - such as the Samaritans is the best course of action

MN is not equipped to handle such things and should not imply that they are themselves a place that can

[Smotheroffive]

The Samaritans do not hold any information on their callers, unlike MN.

So whatever you say to a Samaritan even if you go ahead and kill yourself whilst on the phone to them theres nothing they can do, and I feel for any that have been through that,but they are trained for all kind of situations, whereas posters are not, and are a population sometimes put at emotional and psychological risk from other posters on a forum.

I'm not sure about the blurred lines on this one though,although Michael commented on the continued monitoring of the thread, which when OP ignored all words other than to encourage off-board posting, it was a bit obvious the intent wasn't to focus on the support beng offered

[NoCauseRebel]

Oh and according to a poster on another thread the Samaritans are no longer bound by confidentiality any more and are legally bound to report to the authorities so there goes another source of support for those who feel they need it....

[NoCauseRebel]

So, suicidal posters aside, the T&C’s state that where there are safeguarding concerns hq can make a report. So where does that end?

Currently there is at least one thread where an OP is being accused of neglect. It’s not black and white but she is getting an absolute flaming on that thread. Perhaps some might suggest that mn intervene and report her to social services? What about posters looking for support to leave abusive relationships? Should HQ have referred those to the police?

By making this stance the message is very clear. Speaking out when you need support is not acceptable because those you are asking for support will sneakily go behind your back and report you to the authorities. In an age where we encourage people to ask for help when they need it and to feel they are able to talk about their feelings this is not something which is going to encourage that view. If anything the message is very clear. People need to close off again. Never speak about that which troubles you because you never know who is listening and who might report you and to who.

It’s incredibly disempowering.

[EntirelyAnonymised]

There have been another two or three similarly themed new threads since Samm’s.

I do think Josie makes an interesting point and it’s an angle I hadn’t necessarily considered. If MN are now intervening on these sorts of threads, (though it is unclear on what the criteria is for intervention and how MNHQ determine a genuine poster from a full on troll or a drama llama) will it draw vulnerable people here with the expectation that they will be ‘rescued’ by the MN SWAT team?

It’s problematic on every level.

[donaldducksgranonceremoved]

f someone posts on here that they are considering harm to themselves or others then yes it should be reported to the authorities. It may be the only way to stop something tragic. Drs and counsellors can break confidence for similar reasons - I have people call me at work asking for help in confidence and yes I would call the police/social services if I was worried as I put safety above the embarrassment of a visit from the police that turns out to be a false alarm.

Doctors and counsellors know the person actually exists and is who they say they are - there's a face to face relationship and they don't simply do it without informing suicidal person that they need to and why. It's transparent not a sneaky call which is a betrayal.

Even over the phone - the voice exists and usually you would inform someone that you needed to do X because of X

On the Internet in forums such as MN there is no privacy - hundreds if not thousands of people are an audience to somebody's distress or desire for someone to notice them... some of that audience can be triggered or feel overly responsible towards the poster so then it's not simply 1 vulnerable person at risk but multiple... and well meaning kind helpful people, well think of it this way - would the actual professional who needs to GET involved stand much of a chance doing their job if you all stood in the Dr/Counsellors office talking over them??? You are a distraction!

You aren't a friend IRL who will be there or visiting in hospital if they end up going, and you aren't qualified to help (even if you say you are - in no place does your lisence say "and by posting on MN"

As it is often people cut contact with people who helped in traumatic times later down the line as it's triggering- you aren't building a lovely supportive friendship by chatting with a suicidal stranger online

[Bluntness100]

I strong,y believe if mumsnet or anyone has a genuine concern then it's right to intervene if it may save a life.

If it was someone you loved, wouldn't you want them to?

[TheLoupGarouCrew]

Just because MN passed the poster’s details over to the police does not mean that the police actually visited them. Has there been any confirmation of that apart from the poster’s word that they did? The police wouldn’t confirm this, I assume.

@MNHQ, please can you confirm whether you think it’s likely the police would have been able to track him down from the information you gave them? Was it just an IP address? Because it all seems too easy and convenient, and if the poster was lying it raises some serious questions about the well-being and safety of any women who may have PMed him with personal details.

[Josiebloggs]

@DuvetOver
But it can't be relied upon, the fact they have now done it once means people may rely on it in the future. That means they DO now have a responsibility to report for these people.
If that is the case where does it stop? They have the means and capability to send help to vulnerable people, they have proved it but safeguarding with zero training means the rational for calling emergency services will differ from mod to mod.

[DuvetOver]

To me, this indicates a bunch of moderators with no proper training, and poor recruitment practice. That's not acceptable in a site with this turnover.

[DuvetOver]

Contacting police sets a dangerous precedent as now people crying for help instead of having serious intent can post here in the knowledge that help will be sent.. or will it? . I think the problem is that the two are very similar. OP, whoever they are has a serious MH problem and needs to see someone qualified to help.

[Josiebloggs]

I only read his first post and he sounded like a narcissistic abuser.
Contacting police sets a dangerous precedent as now people crying for help instead of having serious intent can post here in the knowledge that help will be sent.. or will it?
Its also stopped vulnerable people from feeling safe to post on here which is unfortunate as an anonymous forum may be the only place they can safely get advice.

[Namechangeforthiscancershit]

There must be more to it than we know. Otherwise it does not seem like the policy has been applied consistently.

[ReanimatedSGB]

Hmm, maybe his ex recognised him from the posts and shopped him herself, because he sounds like a prize wanker.

[NoCauseRebel]

Sounds like the ex had a lucky escape.

All that imagining people sobbing by one’s grave shite is pure manipulation. Would love to be a fly on the wall if the police turned up at his workplace though. Sounds like the tosser got what he deserved, even if I do disagree with how it came about.

[Smotheroffive]

So this thread should fall under the same ruling/policy although it's another poster saying they will,not the OP

[SparklyMagpie]

Yeah I agree with you actually @ColeHawlins

Brush under the carpet again springs to mind

[ColeHawlins]

I think it's one of those "MNHQ fucked up" situations and soon they'll get round to saying they fucked up and all will be well.

[SparklyMagpie]

I felt quite uncomfortable with his insistence regarding the PM'ing and how he completely ignored advice but wouldn't drop it with the messages.

Anyway, I'm actually a little shocked MNHQ haven't come to answer ANY of the questions raised on here.

[Smotheroffive]

Good grief??? What on earth happened!!

I have to say I was very about the fantasies of his ex stood by his grave and everyone balling their eyes out, well that showed them, kind of altitude.

Also, that he described being wholly consumed by his love for her. He sounded abusive, and like abusers who do this to cause the ultimate pain to those they are supposed to love.

Thank the lord she got away is all I can say!

Yes,loads of ignoring of the actual advice offered, and persistence in pm'ing,bit that doesn't give them anything.

I guess it makes sense now the whole pm'ing thing. He's either in extreme distress or has criminal intent, either way its a job for the police, and tbh more trolls should go that way.

They deserve arrest trying to mess with others emotional and mental well-being using threats of suicide for harmful purposes.

[ColeHawlins]

Well found @ItsAllGoingToBeFine

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

^So we've spoken to Mind and the Samaritans about this and they both suggest that we continue to allow threads in which users talk about feeling very low and having suicidal thoughts but remove threads that are clear statements of intent ('I am going to kill myself'), suicide notes, 'live' suicide threads. ('I have taken an overdose and am waiting for it to take effect'), or anything that involves a description of methods.

Looking at the this thread, this chimes with what the majority of Mumsnetters want us to do also, so henceforth that's what we'll do.

In cases in which we remove threads, we will post to explain to the OP that we are going to delete it, and signpost the Samaritans; PM the OP (supportively, obviously) to signpost the Samaritans; and explain our actions in the deletion message.

In cases where we leave the thread up (the feeling low threads) we will post links to our mental health webguide and to the Samaritans' online and telephone support.

We know there are some who feel extremely strongly that threads that express suicidal intent should be allowed to stand, and we do understand your reasons, but the consensus was so strong on this one - from both MNers and from experts in the field - that it really did feel there was only one way forward.^

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2216573-OFFICIAL-MNHQ-THREAD-on-posts-about-suicide-troll-hunting-and-related-matters

Rebecca Mumsnet 31/10/2014 17:36

[ColeHawlins]

I thought suicidal threads were usually deleted. There was long and heated discussion about the appropropriate course of action a couple of years back. Wonder why/when that changed.

This is true. That's when specialist advice was sought, I thought. (From the Samaritans?)

But it's also true what @ReanimatedSGB says. I deregistered after that lovely episode of Jeffrey being a dick and SGB being raided by armed feds and haven't given MNHQ any traceable details since. It's much safer that way.

[NoCauseRebel]

Yes, I agree with this. He was talking about having reached out to a couple of friends who didn't offer himsupport and (paraphrasing here) wondering how they'd feel 'after'. And how he kept picturing his ex sobbing by his grave. what the actual fuck? And this was left to stand? Seriously?

MN hq’s Silence on this speaks volumes IMO.

[DuvetOver]

Also ... it was coincidentally very close to the very sad death of Michael Thallasitis which post people had heard of even if they aren't reality TV viewers - which meant mnetters were more likely to be hooked into it.