New NHS guidelines on IVF treatment to extend age limit up to 42 - what do you think?

[JaneGMumsnet]

Good morning,

New IVF guidelines issued by the National Institute of Health & Clinical Excellence (NICE) say that women aged up to 42 should be allowed one cycle of IVF treatment so long as it is their first attempt. Previously Nice recommended treatment up to the age of 39.

The guidelines also suggest that all couples who are struggling to conceive should get fertility treatment more quickly ? after two years of trying to conceive naturally, rather than three.

We'd love to hear what you think.

Thanks,
MNHQ

[maamalady]

You are indeed lucky, SteIIa. But unless your child is a result of assisted conception or adoption, you probably don't know how it feels to face a future without children, and how desolate that experience is. Therefore, claiming as you did that women feel entitled to have children is erroneous. Some people may, but suggesting all do is simply incorrect, as well as callous and unhelpful to boot.

[HelenMumsnet]

@evilgiraffe

Speaking of AIBU, why is this post in Site Stuff? It's an odd place for it, surely? In The News might be better?

Afternoon. When we're canvassing MN opinion, we tend always to post in Site Stuff.

[FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn]

But invariably the people saying that lots of women have a sense of entitlement over children are those that already have them.

It's not about a sense of entitlement, it is about a deep, primeval urge that takes over your life.

[Northey]

I don't think anyone misunderstood your post about entitlement, stella, they just disagreed with it and explained why they did.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Good point Jethro. It was only through having been on MN so long that I'd even heard of AMH let alone known that my result was low. The NHS consultant didn't even think to mention it until I said "Um...that looks low!" And as for the GP, she tried to send me along telling me not to worry because lots of celebrities have babies in their late thirties and forties, and she honestly didn't think there was a problem.

[maamalady]

Aha, thanks Helen!

[SteIIaBeIIa]

Evil - My child is adopted. Are you satisfied now?

I'm opting out of this conversation now before I out myself.

[AmberSocks]

i think its great and think it should be made higher,maybe up to 45?

[BasicallySFB]

SteIIa - You said:
'This is another one of those "entitlement" issues isn't it? Women feel they are "entitled" to be mothers. Well we're not. Some of us do and some of us don't.'

Hoping to avoid another deletion - I find that to be an upsetting perspective on infertility, and on the processes that many women have to go through to become a mother. Because it's not about 'entitlement' at all - 'entitlement' to treatment or to being a mother.

It's about, as was very eloquently said above, a deep, biological urge, that can be life consuming, life destroying and life devastating - in process and outcome.

I am incredibly lucky to have DS, after years and years and years of painful, invasive and very unpleasant treatments. I'm incredibly lucky in lots of other areas too, in having a lovely DH for example. There's very little I feel 'entitled' to (bar the occasional toilet break at work!) - being a mother was never something I felt 'entitled' to be. It was something I desperately craved being.

[Northey]

Right, stella, so when you were going through the adoption process, did you have a "sense of entitlement" to have a child?

[BasicallySFB]

Byway back to the original point - good news, in theory. In practice...remains to be seen, but unlikely to be particularly widely implemented given current financial situation of the NHS.

[curryeater]

I think that it is far more important that the treatment available is nationally, realistically consistent; and that it is not waited for for too long; than what the guidelines actually are (within reason).

and actually, without wanting to be flippant, nobody has any idea what is painful to me or what makes me feel like a failure, any more than vice versa.

[FairyJen]

stella may I ask why you chose adoption rarer than another option? Was it an issue with the ivf process or just personal choice? I only ask as I think many people see adoption as a last resort iykwim and a lot of children fester in foster care because of this. I do wander if this figure will actually go up now older women can get ivf via the nhs.

[AmberSocks]

I dont understand why people say having chidren isnt a right,of course it is,and if you cant do it naturally for whatever reason then you should be able to get help with that,on the nhs.

[Startail]

Since Df had her DS at almost 43 and DH and his DSIS were born either side of their mums 40th that seems very reasonable to me.

DMIL was the best advert for having your DC late in life you could possibly meet, she died suddenly at 77, still riding every week and still able to stick on her walking boots and stride up hills I'd rather walk round.

[Northey]

I completely agree, curry. My clinic takes NHS referrals from three neighbouring PCTs. I get one NHS cycle. The woman in the stirrups five minutes later gets three. I know different areas have different funding priorities, but this is all SE England and I really don't believe the demographics of these two areas are so different as to warrant that.

[maamalady]

Indeed, Northey - the variety of care across the country is baffling.

FairyJen - I think you're right, adoption is often (usually?) seen as a last resort. I know DH and I wouldn't choose to adopt as a first choice, but we probably will if IVF fails. That's probably because of the biological drive - I can't get away from the all-consuming need to conceive a child with DH, and raise that child with him. I honestly don't know how closely adoption compares, though I believe that adoption (parictularly as a first choice) is staggeringly altruistic.

[RedToothBrush]

Being a mother and being a woman are still somehow connected in the mindset of many and in our society as a whole.

To be unable to be a mother, is often accompanied by a deep feeling of somehow being less of a woman. Its not true, but you've still grown up with the sense of expectation placed on your shoulders. And particularly once your friends start having children, the questions start being asked about when - not if - you will have children. People can not understand the desire not to have children. People who express this opinion are often looked at and treated with suspicion or patronisingly told they will change their mind and that their body clock with go off etc, etc.

Its not entitlement. Its what is expected of you on top of your own desires. So to have the ability to conceive naturally taken away from you and then have the double blow of having IVF as an option also taken away from you by the same society that places this expectation and demand on you is just cruel. Especially since it is something that you can not help and is not a choice, when so many health related illnesses out there are lifestyle choices.

I think these double standards within our society are both blinkered and unhelpful. Its, why I deeply dispute the word 'entitled' in this context.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

The whole area of rights and entitlement is so very difficult anyway isn't it ?

The American constitution famously came up with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

I'd find it difficult to say what I felt I had a right to, especially health wise. But I think having a health service free at the point of need is something I'd want to safeguard in this country.

I think it's quite right that that should include some treatment for those suffering with infertility, which could so easily have been me.

Good luck to those for whom this might offer some further hope.

[BasicallySFB]

What redtoothbrush said.

[FairyJen]

I think entitlement could be right tho. I mean everybody has the right to lead a full, satisfying and happy life. That is a right we are entitled to otherwise just what is the point to it all??

So if having children be it naturally, through ivf, surrogacy or adoption etc is part of havin said fulfilled life then surely that makes it an entitlement and rightly so?

[LittleMissHocusPocus]

I don't understand the viewpoint held by some people here that infertility - whatever the reason - is not an "illness" and should therefore not be NHS funded.

Pregnancy and childbirth (for example) are themselves not "illnesses" yet it is expected and accepted by the vast majority of people that scans, tests and giving birth are provided for by the NHS in the majority of cases.

As it should be, of course. But equally then, so should fertility treatment, certainly up to an age where it is still perfectly possible to have children 'naturally' - my own Auntie was conceived naturally when my Gran was 42. I therefore think the new guidelines are a good thing.

I do not feel entitled to have children, but I do think I am entitled as the next person to the chance to have children.

And for what it's worth, had I had kids with the person I was with for most of my 20s (and so supposedly at my most fertile) I would have ended up bringing them into a hugely unsuitable relationship, struggling financially, and those poor hypothetical kids would have had a god-awful father.

Would that have been better? 'Cost' the country less?

[maamalady]

I do not feel entitled to have children, but I do think I am entitled as the next person to the chance to have children.

That's a good way of putting it, Little.

[midastouch]

I will get slated for my opinion but i don't think they should increase it, theres a reason your fertility decreases with age its well known that you have increased risks for you and baby as you get older. The nhs isnt for people who left it too late imho but then i also resent it being used for drug addicts, alcoholics and those who have conditions through smoking

[Xenia]

We are supposedly in a time of huge economic need with vastly stretched resources. There may be a case for saying no fertility treatment of anyone on the NHS, but not this latest move. However I would support any change which means the rules are absolutely identical including over prescription charges wherever you live even in Scotland and Wales.