How much influence does a prep school have in helping DCs get into senior schools?

[millymollymandy988]

Just interested in people's views on this? The whole pre-test situation is totally out of control in London and the South East and you would think that if prep schools actually had any influence things would have been sorted out by now......

Or has the tutoring epidemic muddied the waters so much that prep schools are no longer sure who the truly academic DCs in the cohort actually are?

[Notmynom]

Chocolate honeycomb please don't despair. We were in a similar position with our DS. Incredibly bright but was getting completely average scores on practise tests leading up to the ISEB - he has dyspraxia which affects his spacial awareness and made NVR a real problem. We knew he'd get a really poor score on that part of the test. Anyway his school said based on his overall academic performance we should still apply for the most academic schools because the tests weren't reflecting his ability and that they would stress this in his reference. He got interviews at all of them which then gave him the chance to show his true ability.

One of the schools told me that he hadn't got the type of overall score they'd normally expect but had got an outstanding score on one particular section and they'd noticed he'd completed the whole thing in under half the time allocated and factored this in too. So I think that while they use the pretest to sift applicants they aren't just looking at the overall score - they really look at the detail. A boy who does really well on some sections but not others can still get through and the prep school can really improve the chance of this happening by what they write in the reference.

[ChocolateHoneycomb]

Is all ridiculous. I am trying to forecast where will be suitable for a very bright (overall) but erratically performing anxious ds with ASD and dyslexia. I suspect he will do averagely at best on the pretest. The senior schools seem to look at the pretest mean score, an objectively high stakes narrow computerised exam taken by 9-10 yr olds years before they will go to 13 plus schools, as the be all and end all.
Ds will do badly out of the system, and whilst we will find a school and his prep are being very supportive, I’m sure he isn’t the only one!

[MGMidget]

Someone mentioned 'buying influence'. Maybe that applies in some schools but I think it is an exaggerated myth in London. Parents start their children off in private schools believing that they are paying for a ticket to get them into a prestigious secondary school but then later on they end up tutoring or supplementing the work of the school at home to get the children to the desired level themselves. So not really any different to the local state schools and, if anything, the bar can be set higher for some private secondaries when coming from a prep school in that they will positively discriminate or have different expectations of those coming from a state school. Some schools want the children to write the name of the school they are currently attending on the exam paper so they can take it into account in the marking or shortlisting for the next stage.

Boarding schools can still be a bit more 'clubby' with more dialogue between the prep heads and the senior schools from what I have observed second-hand. But boarding schools don't have such a volume of applicants per place (on the whole) and also they take predominantly from the prep schools so are adopting the same approach for everyone. Day schools in London, on the other hand, take large volumes from the local state schools and don't like to be seen to have any special dialogue with the private schools. Our prep head doesn't seem to like this though as it takes away an important part of his role where he can have influence, add value for parents, and continue the myth that prep school heads can help get children into their first choice school!

[PresentingPercy]

Fine with me BookShark. We do all have differing needs to consider.

I’ve certainly seen state schools name feeder schools but often private primary parents don’t want those schools. They tend to went grammars or continue with private. Sec mods as a total last resort.

[TheExtraGuineaPig]

We're in the Surrey bordering SW London bit and all the non faith state schools (Esher, 3 Rivers, Hinchley Wood) have feeder primaries as their first criteria after looked after children and those with an EHCP. It's not unusual for primary children to have been private because the schools nearby are really full and you could have been given one a few miles away and then leave at yr5/6 to state primary because otherwise you can't get a nearby state school place. There's a big school place shortage in the immediate area compounded by bordering on to the London boroughs that are considered differently.

[BookShark]

Let's just agree to disagree - everyone's situation is very different, and we're all making the choices that we think are the best ones for our children!

[PresentingPercy]

I would never want dc in a class of 8. It’s no advantage for social interaction and tolerance of others. My DDs prep had 18 per class. Lots of choices for friends and, as it was non selective, working groups.

Some private secondaries have their own feeder prep. They might also forge close links with others if they are the only private secondary for miles around. Secondary schools can have feeders but usually it’s a faith issue. However the schools that send the majority of DC to a school are in a geographic area and within catchment of the secondary. But - it goes on home address of parents.

[coolingbreezes]

Are feeder schools really that important for state secondaries in London? I had no idea. Here, the entry criteria are all about where you live (plus faith, 11+ where relevant) - it's almost unheard of for a secondary to have an official feeder school (ie one that makes any difference to your chance of a place). As for reasons for choosing private, career and university weren't a factor at all for us. It was all about the day to day school experience, not the ultimate destination.

[BookShark]

Maybe. But come and live in SW London and you'll see it's a huge part of why people go to independent prep schools. I'm not saying it's fair & but it can and does make a difference. DD is in a class of 8 - that has several social challenges which is why she does a lot of activities outside - but like it or not, it gives her huge advantage in terms of her academic education.

But the flip side is that we don't pay for a tutor, as she's getting that education through school. Would you level the same accusation at those parents who tutor to get their children a state grammar place (which we've not even applied for, as there's no reason to do so)?

[PresentingPercy]

That expectation would be wrong then! You should pay for a whole host of reasons but treading on others in the race for a university or career isn’t one of them. It’s a by product if DC is good enough. No private school will turn a sows ear into a silk purse but DC might get a rounded education along the way!

[BookSkark]

Bear in mind that a lot of kids at prep schools are completely out of catchment for state secondaries because they're not in feeder schools - we're not applying for any as we know we won't get in. So part of our expectation from DD's prep is that we get that head recommendation and a Year 5/6 which is fully focused on passing the entrance exams. Maybe it's not fair, but it's what we've been paying for since she was 3, and we made that decision because we knew that the local state options (SW London) were not as good as the independent ones.

Yes, it's about the privilege of being able to afford a private education, but isn't that the same at both primary and secondary? Otherwise, why would people apply for secondary - surely it's because you expect a better university/career?

[user149799568]

This question came up in an open day when DD was applying to North London Collegiate School. The head of admissions answered that they tried to err on the side of interviewing too many girls. If, for example, a girl's score on the math exam was too low to earn her an interview but her prep's head went to bat and gave testimony that the girl was actually quite strong at math, NLCS would usually grant the girl an interview - and use it to reevaluate her math, along with her personality.

[PresentingPercy]

I feel London is so very different from elsewhere. We are not London and it’s more relaxed here.

My DD took an entrance test for a senior school - from state primary. DD had no coaching. We chatted about her interests which we had put on the application form and made sure she had something to say at interview! That was all. She was fine. She did get into another private school too, so we had to choose. I know at her school she was the only state educated girl in her year. She rather dined out on it! She definitely would have been at the other school.

I found out later that her senior school never had a reference, or indeed any info, from her state primary school at all. They refused to give any academic info. I had the best info for them - DD got 140/141 in the Bucks selection test. The Head was against private education and wouldn’t support us or DD.

After this episode, we withdrew DD2. Who needs this sort of behaviour from an alleged professional? DD2 followed DD1. So, by that time, I’m not sure if DD2’s prep head had any influence at all. Not sure if they supported us either as most DD left the prep school at 13, not 11. They did have a senior school head on their governing body but hardly any DDs went to her school! More went to the local very high achieving senior school! I would be very surprised if there wasn’t a close relationship there as they can virtually see each other!

[CatsAreAliens]

I think it totally depends on the school. A head generally has a relationship with 5/6 schools. They are very careful with their recommendations as otherwise what value is their opinion. It is about more than just academics - it is also about whether the school is right for that particular child. I think where a lot of people go wrong is that they are choosing the child for themselves rather than looking objectively at their child

[Stokey]

I don't think it's necessarily the influence of the head that makes the difference as the amount of prep the kids get for the exams from very early on. My nephew goes to a London prep school and has been getting reams of work in the holidays, and preparing for these exams (he's in Y6) since at least Y4 if not earlier. My dd1 (also Y6) is at a state school and has just done a selective exam. She's had no input from school, we started doing practice papers in June and had 3 months tutoring over the summer. She is an extremely able student but only just scrapped through the first round as she hasn't had the intense tutoring/prep. Ironically the school she has applied for was originally set up for poor children who couldn't afford private schools, but now is attended by middle class parents who can afford years of tutoring.

[whataboutbob]

@KindKylie I agree with you. This thread looks bonkers for those who are not on this particular track. I’m in London but both kids at state schools. Sorry but this is all about buying privilege, or paying to consolidate it.

[Fishingeveryday212]

@MGMidget your prep school sounds exactly like ours!

[MGMidget]

Yes in my DCs school the head has some influencewith s small handful of schools and they are all boarding schools where competition is not as stiff as day schools. Amongst the London day schools the influence is minimal, so much so that the head gives very little encouragement to aim for them. Therefore for us private school wasnt great value in te4ms of helping get into the next school. They do still boast of their leavers list though but behind the scenes many parents are quietly or not so quietly tutoring.

[jeanne16]

I think the influence prep school heads have is totally exaggerated. They will have had massive influence in previous decades (pre 1980s) but they have very little influence now, hence all the pre testing. I think prep schools like to maintain the illusion they do have influence.

My DS went to a London all boys prep and we got minimal help.

[MarshaBradyo]

I guess that’s what people pay for - the prep. Although I question the impact of head over actual results. Top academic schools don’t want to be fudged either.

Although I’d say if you can afford it someone will take you. Some schools are more mixed so if not highly academic you can get a spot.

[coolingbreezes]

I agree that an extremely able state school pupil is likely to have a very good chance of a place unless they screw up on the day. But what about an averagely able or less able student? I imagine they would be significantly less likely to get an independent secondary school place without a prep school coaching them for entrance exams, putting lots of effort into the reference, preparing them for interview, and possibly 'having a word' with the senior school head.

[MarshaBradyo]

State to private can do well, and with scholarship. Just very academic and able and I think independent are good at taking state on their ability alone.

I do wonder how much pressure there would be though, maybe if student had a bad day, but the school they go into wants high results as possible so if a prep convinces them to take a student that struggles the next year they might not be convinced.

[GU24Mum]

I'm sure it would work better (at least in theory) if there was a central application form (possible confidential from the schools) where parents could input their actual preference and could finesse it with A then B then C etc...... but C over B if we get a scholarship. Schools could input their ranking of pupils and the system could then allocate the pupils.

Sounds good in theory but no doubt unworkable in practice?

I think it's got worse over the past few years as the cohort sizes increase but they are I think off the peak after this year and will then drop off considerably a few years down the line so it's likely to feel very different in a few years' time when the schools will have fewer numbers applying.

[coolingbreezes]

Lucky for my DS that it doesn't all go on the head's recommendation, or he might not have got his scholarship at a very competitive academic secondary from his bog standard state primary. I think his primary head did kindly write him a reference, but she certainly wouldn't have had any sway beyond that. I know you said in your op that some sort of test is needed for state applicants - but surely any prep applicant who gets in on the encouragement of the prep head is reducing the chances for state applicants? (If DS had not performed well in the entrance exam he certainly wouldn't have had anyone to fight his corner for him.)

[Zodlebud]

@KindKylie It is, indeed, bonkers. It’s a system that works exceptionally well for the bright child but not for those average and below. It’s the private school system in London though. It’s a choice to engage in it or leave well alone.

Not everyone is lucky enough to have a “shabby” local comprehensive with a guaranteed catchment place though. Some of the top state schools in the country can be found in London. So can some of the very worst. I’ll bet there are several county and even higher level players in a multitude of London state schools now who have never 1) had that talent identified, 2) had opportunities to even try it 3) have the family backing to support it 4) have the finances to fund it or 5) been given the time to be able to pursue it due to additional responsibilities at home such looking after younger siblings whilst their parents work several jobs.

Yes, the whole London independent school thing is yuck, but what’s far worse is the huge inequalities in the state school system depending on where you live. If every state school was amazing and children were properly supported then far fewer would probably end up in private.